402 stocker engine
 

I have 402 stocker engine that seems to have a lot of blow by. Having build this engine several years ago . it is a 454 block sleeved back to a 4.185 bore. Cp piston race rings honed the first time sv 10 diamond stone sealed up made reasonable power. Hauled it back to sd where it sat for 3years in the shop. Was going to sell it so put it on engine stand and ran it smoked out of the valve covers a bunch. So I took it apart had it honed. Reassembled it new with race rings ,put it on the engine run stand same thing. Took apart once agin. Took it to victory engine had it honed once more . New pistons and rings etc. I look the engine over upped the oil the ring thing still smokes out the valve covers. Not a little a lot. Any ideas?

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Check it with a good Blowby meter! Then you will know!

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Odd thing after you run the engine for 5-10 minutes you take the valve cover off and the smoke comes up from the engine for what like 3-5 minutes.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Take the engine back to Matt's shop and put it on the Dyno, he'll figure
it out quickly.

J.R.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Good morning to all,
Since you recently had this engine honed and re- ringed it, have you made any full power pulls on a dyno ?
It'll take a couple of pulls to get the rings to seat. Running at Idle or above Idle won't seat the rings.
Also what shape were the ring lands in ? If they have a excessive amount of play ( up & down) they won't seal either.
If you haven't run this engine on the dyno, I would, then make at least 4 or 5 full power pulls and that should get things in order.
Good luck with your adventure and keep us posted with your results.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

I have not had it on a dyno, the last time I put it in the car and ran it . Same result smoke out the valve covers. This is the4th time it’s been a part.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Ive seen small casting flaw holes in cylinder heads or intakes suck in oil when I was a dealership mechanic. Its rare but it happens

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Check at the base of your spring pockets.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Yup, pull the intake if needed and look at the backside of the intake valves for any "puddled up" oil, or oil tracking in the runner. Then check the angles to ensure they match.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

It has not smoked out of the exhaust, it actually leaks fairly well,

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Do you know what brand and material the sleeves are ?? curious -- thanks

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Jim, what are the leakage numbers cold and hot? -Al

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Bob they are cast iron. Have used them several times with no problem.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

1 :7.5;3:7 5:4.5 7;6.2%. 2;5 4;8.5 6;8.5 8:5 %. Cold. H 1:5.25 3;4.25 5: 4. 7: 4.25. 2 3.25 4:4.75 6:4 8:4 %

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Henry the pistons are new lands are good,this is the second set of pistons had the same results. Here in South Dakota the dynos are few and far.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Not having smoke from the headers simply means there's not a lot of oil getting into the combustion chamber, by the oil rings or the valve stem seals.


Smoke from the valve covers is a sign of blow by, or oil temperature problems. Blow by will actually blow the oil ring out against the cylinder walls, and stop oil from getting by. With good quality modern rings, odds are your problem is the hone, or what you're doing to assemble the engine.


Call Keith or Kevin at Total Seal.


The proper way to test cylinder seal is with a blow by meter on the dyno, with a Dwyer guage, there's no real substitute There's a video on youtube, by Lake Speed Jr.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Alan -- what are you thoughts or results on using sleeves in BB blocks ??

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Not sure if anyone else ask this. Do you know the tension on oil ring?
The other would be seating the rings. Either on a dyno if in car then maybe get brake pressure as high as you can and run motor in gear as high as you can. If unable to hold in 1st gear try second gear. I had trans brake on my super stocker and it worked well on rebuild. Don't forget to remove rpm chip. Hopefully carb is not leaking when sitting and washing out cylinders.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Good morning to all,
I was catching up here this morning and that suggestion is a good catch. I was about to say if the engine is broken in properly, that the problem could be "deeper" meaning you'll have to scrutinize all the parts much more closely. I did have a problem recently where the way the Mfg. cut the Second ring stack, the cutter let a burr on the back side of the ring - causing it to stick in the ring land. The engine wouldn't seal and did smoke. I'm not saying this is your problem, but I'm stating that going over all the piece's in the " system" need to be inspected. Had another situation with rings where they " micro welded " themselves in the top ring land causing the top ring to not seal. I'm bring up examples so you can take your engine apart and " inspect " each part. Without the parts in front of me its a little difficult to see for myself.
Keep looking - I'm sure you'll see the problem.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

We have had good luck. However, to be very clear, we use flanged diesel sleeves. I won't use a non flanged sleeve anymore, for anything. Flanged sleeves are a royal pain, especially if your block is already "finished", and you don't want to deck it much, if any. But properly installed flanged sleeves do not move, and do not distort. Also, a good quality sleeve is better material than a production block. Combine a quality sleeve with the modern diamond hone process as prescribed by guys like Keith Jones and Lake Speed Jr., at Total Seal, and you have the best possible cylinder.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Again, if it isn't smoking out the headers, oil isn't getting past the oil ring, or second ring. If it is smoking and "huffing" out the valve covers/breathers, that's cylinder pressure in the pan, and it may not show up on a compression test or a leak down. But it WILL show up on the dyno, or in the car, with a Dwyer gauge on the breather. If you don't have access to a dyno (an 8 hour drive to get on a dyno is a "no brainer", these days there is no substitute for a dyno for a race engine) you can test it in an automatic car, with two people.


If you have any sort of gapless ring, a leak down test can lie to you.



https://youtu.be/pzluLjqGe3U?si=zDn36xKZJblG9Nrg

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Toy... Something I continue to do is when the block comes back from the Machine Shop, I still wash the engine and most importantly the bores with a bucket full of hot water and Tide Laundry Detergent. It is amazing how black a rag will get scrubbing the walls. I finish up with a scrub brush. I believe the bore finish can't be clean enough, I normally wipe ATF on the bores, when dry to keep from rusting. We have never had any ring seal issues, causing high crankcase pressure. On the Dyno 5 pulls is what it takes, to have stable results.
One thing I have had happen is the valve seals have come off the intake guides. They then run with the valve and the seal actually acts as a pump, pumping up against the top of the guide, allowing oil the enter the valve pocket. This results in the backside of the Intake Valve being oil soaked and allowing oil to enter the Combustion Chamber causing embarrassing smoke clouds. MB

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

The shop doing the hone have they checked the cylinder roughness with a profilometer? The intake gasket not soaked at bottom near intake runner?

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

I have a Fisher Porter blow by meter it is the same model Chrysler used that is where I learned how to use mine from Don McElory Ted Flack and John Worley! The company that bought Fisher Porter still has them available. They are more accurate than the Dewyer Plastic meter that Speed is pushing I tested them back to back when Hamburger was selling the Dewyer!

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Did someone put the ring spacer on the bottom people seem to struggle with that.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Jeff it’s about 14 lbs

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

I did that years ago, but these piston have none, simple 5/64 5/64 3/16. ?

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

They have never been cut factory shock. To Hacksaw it acts like the cam is going flat,thats what it looks like but the cams fine?

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Melling cast. Have done about 10 of them over the years,this is the only one to do this.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Not sure why you are doing this on your own. The first time you had this problem you should have brought your entire engine to the shop and let them figure out what the problem is. We all could guess at 20 different things it could be but until you bring it somewhere good you could hone this block right into new sleeves. I'd call the guy 5 post up and ask him if he has time to look at it. It's great to say you did it yourself or you don't have the money but at some point you need to stop the bleeding. BP

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Well BP I had worked in a engine shop for several years, I just thought may be someone else had ran into the same problem.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Jim, when you say they are race rings...are they AP steel.coated rings, a barrel faced back cut moly, etc?

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Good morning to all,
Something Alan said struck me, as we might be looking at this all wrong. What kind of an oil pump are you using? The reason I ask is it possible that the oil pump in pumping a great deal of oil up to the rocker arms and flooding the valve cover area and I'm going to guess that you aren't using a valve stem seals on the exhaust valves. If you have excess oil in the valve covers and you don't have exhaust valve seals, while the engine is running the puffing through the breathers could be caused by oil blown back from the exhaust stems.
Take a valve cover off and remove the distributor and install an oil pump priming tool. Put a 1/2" drill on it and spin it up, then observe the amount of oil being pushed through the pushrods and out the rocker arms. You might be surprised how much oil can flow through there. I have a Schumann pump in my engine and it does a VERY Good job of oiling the engine. When I first primed my engine the oil shot out the rockers like I never saw before. I had to restrict the oil flow and got that under control.
I'm not saying that's your problem, but lets assume just for a moment that with the pistons and rings being new and good quality and you've had this engine apart a couple of times, maybe its not the rings or pistons or even the cylinder sleeves. but we're looking in the wrong place.
I still believe you should put this engine on a dyno at this point and put this situation to rest. On a dyno you'll also know just how much Power this puppy makes. The best of luck on you're search here, keep us informed as to what your conclusion is.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

While the #401 heads are notorious for poor oil drain back, the haze from the lifter valley area (coming up from the crank case) doesn't fit with that either.

Tough to diagnose stuff like this long distance. If the leakage numbers are in fact fine, the dyno is where you'll find the answers.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

The rings were from Greg L and they were back cut. The pistons were cut for the rings at cp. 12 lb oil ring..

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Al it’s not like I havent done this before ,the heads are 291 cast iron they have never been on any motor but this and a427 I ran. Matt hone it last time I followed his recommendation on assemble. I upped the oil ring from 12 to 14.5 no help. It does look like an oil temp problem but what is causing it ?.?the only time I have seen this it was the cam going flat.Its not.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Oil temp is not hard to measure, you can put a cheap sending unit in the drain plug.

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

Didn't mean to offend you, Jim...just trying to pull out some info (ring material, etc).

Wishing you all the best as you work through it. -Al

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

The part that doesn't sit right with me is that it sat for 3 years, and somehow became a smoker

Re: 402 stocker engine
 

You didn’t Al