question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I'm listening to SC in Pomona and Bob Frey said something about how that number was chosen. We all know how that casual fan hates throttle stop racing, so maybe it would be good to lower the indexes to say 8.?0, 9.?0, and 10.?0. What do you think would be good answers that would allow reduce the time on the stop but not drive too many drivers out of competition?

And please, don't throw stuff. It's just a question.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Dave, I'd be there in a minuit if they made S/G a 8.90 door car class.....Most .90 racers will tell you that the cars are much more consistiant when they are'nt on the timer for 3 seconds or more. ..... The current class ET brakes made sense 20 years ago when HP cost big bucks,and most guys were slowing their cars a couple of tenths. .... Now that you can have a 632" motor for only a couple of bucks more than a 427, lowering the index would make sense. ......My new car will probably be able to go 2 seconds under the 9.90 index, but I like running against other door cars, so I'll stay in SG. The idea of S/ST being an entry class is obsolete, nearly everyone in that class can run -1.0 sec under. .......Let them go to 9.90 on a .5 tree and create a 7.90 class for the faster cars. .... I'm sure some wont agree, but the lack of change in the index's is partially responsible for the proliferation of the TOP classes .....Tom

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

The only way to make the Super classes fan watchable is to go back to old school

1. Allow Throttle stops, but it can not be operated by air or electric. Where ever the plates are set to run a 90, thats it. This would also take care of these damn timers and guys trying to run faster then a Pro Stock.

2. Do away with delay boxes, hey back in the day even when i started the delay box was no such thing (1978)
(well it was in Ohio, but thats another story)

3. Staging, when both drivers pre-stage, you have 10 seconds to go on in, none of this 3 bulb then auto start stuff, this would eliminate people that i watch that have a real big problem staging.

Now lets go racing, wait a minute, the Nostalgia Gas Association in California run under thses rules and I had them at one of my events at Fontana.
They ran on 8.60, 9.60 & 10.60 Index's.

But lets face it, it will never happen, to many big companys have a hand in things anymore.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I agree, seeing the cars lay over on the stop wether its 7.90 or 10.90 is what I see the casual fans confused about the most. The first thing they ask when I explain to them what .90 racing is about is, "Why do they want to slow down?"

While moving each index down a second would make the cars less noticeable to be on the stop by the average fan and maybe make it more appealing, now your losing all the SST cars that can't run 9.90 and all the dragsters that can't run 7.90(If you make 8.90 a door car category) reducing car counts. While that number might not be as great as it was 10 years ago,now those guys have to either upgrade or go to bracket racing.

Love to see them go no electronics and really make it an car/engine tuners game but like Joe stated I think we're too far into the electronics at this point and too many companies have a stake in them.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Who cares about fans? It is fun to drive a race car. If you realy want an audience to show off to, do cruise ins. Everyone is always trying to make changes, just enjoy it!

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I really don't think we should increase the cost any more than we have to....lowering the indexes would cause some of the low buck guys to have to drop down a class...I think we should just leave it alone....

and worry about how to make nationals 3 day events....so we all can go to them...without unlimited vacation....

CBS...

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

now that I finally know how to operate the delay box, weather station and throttle stop, let's not go throw them all away...! I'd be happy if there was a consistent approach to the Pro tree (.400 vs .370 at all the Div I races...), and even happier if they went back to .400...

all joking aside -- I do agree on the 3-day national events. The 4-day schedule absolutely sucks anyway; how crazy is it to have three rounds of Sportsman eliminations completed on Friday morning before the Pros have taken their first time shot?? Then you call your wife and she asks you why you're not coming home for the weekend... after taking three days of vacation to get a good parking spot...

srm

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Gotta go with CBS on this one. Change would be pretty expensive for many. We would love to go to more national events but taking a month of vacation for racing doesn't leave much left for anything else. Since when are we racing for the fans? Does anyone remember PS Truck? Fast gear jammers and everyone went for the hot dog stand. Leave all's well and shorten the national events.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I knew CBS was smarter than he looks. (kidding rock)His thoughts are right. I'm actually thinking of by passing Indy after BGreen next year. Just too much dead time although it is everyones dream to win, it's just a wasted week anymore.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I don't believe changing the indexes for the .90 classes will create any more interest or understanding for the "casual" race fan. The movie will still be the same, just the speed that the film is rolled through will have increased. Fact is, about the only people that watch .90 classes, stock, super stock and most cases even Comp with an educated interest in how these races are won or lost are probably friends and family of a racer in these classes and other racers. Next, try to explain to the "casual" John Force, etc. etc. fan how you tapped the brakes and let your opponemt take the finish line and had the win light come on in your lane. That's an idea they just can't comprehend.

Sportsman classes as a whole have a limited audience and it will always be that way.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

and worry about how to make nationals 3 day events....so we all can go to them...without unlimited vacation....

CBS...

As usual Rock, you hit the nail right on the head, instead of this getting more cost effective, it seems to be going the other way.
If NHRA wants to "Enhance the Sportsmans experience", they should try to figure out ways to help us cut some cost without affecting their bottom line, just aint gonna happen tho.

Gary

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Lets talk this one up....I think we need to come up with solutions..They already do it at some of the races now...Indy is probably not an option...or maybe vegas....but certainly many of the others are....

Our 2nd favorite magazine DRA is hosting a sit down at the PRI show...so any one that puts their 2 cents in....should touch on this subject....I guess we need to find out why it isn't done as much as possible now....so we can suggest a solution....

This is really the number 1 issue I have...

Don't worry Carl....it was my partners idea...I'm not really smarter than I look

CBS

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

CBS your right again and win the five bonus points. I remember close to 20 years ago wondering why all the fans left the stands during super gas and that was when many cars pulled big wheelies and stopped down track where the fan couldnt notice the stop doing its thing .Even then the fan didnt understand why the race car that went an .89 didnt beat the car going a .90. We've all done a poor job explaining our class and promoting it.

As far as three day nationals at NHRA that would be to good to be true but there would be a very limiting factor if it happened. So many more racers would be able to compete at these events it would likely take the grade point requirement to at least a five or more. TO GOOD TO BE TRUE usually is. Speaking of points meets look at the new schedule with all the possible positive changes that could have been made they changed nothing.I really liked the ideas posted on DRAG RACING ONLINE but none were used.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Hey Rock - when is this "sit down" at the PRI show? Do you need to register or just show?

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

email our favorite editor

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I agree also that changing the Index time will create problems for some, budget wise and the way they have their car set up. As far as fans especially in the Division Races, the spectator count is almost non-exsistant. People go to the Nationals to see the big guys. Maybe if the announcers at the Nationals took the time to explain what we do in a little more detail more people may have of an interest. Also bring back the .400 tree at the Divisionals.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Here's my 2 cents. The general public knows very little about sportsmen racing from bracket racing to super class racing. They go to the national events to see the pro's. The people I encounter that ask about my racing ask the question 'Is that one of those cars that blows up or blows over?', so we will never see much spectator activity in the stands for our classes. We should be happy to have the oppurtunity to compete on the same grounds as the pro's, if anything, we should be working towards getting the payouts where it's worth spending several day's for a national event or divisional event. I enjoy running the national & divisional events, but personally, I can make more money bracket racing for less entry, driving & time.

So my opinion is not to lower the index but to increase the payouts for national & divisionals to make it worth the sportsman's time.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I agree,lower the index's
s/c 8.00
s/g 9.00
s/st 10.00
Most s/c can run7.90or faster!
most s/g can run in the 8's even some s/st HAHA
and 10.00 is the cut for all the rules pants,neck coller,gloves etc.
also it may attract new racer's that can race without buying all the stop stuff.
Move up to the present date and lets go fast!

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

What would changing the index's really accomplish? Less time on the stop is more appealing to fans? If I'm on the stop for 2.5 seconds or 1.5 seconds, does it make a difference to fans?

If you lower the index's, all you're doing is raising the cost and perhaps eliminating a few of the slower cars.

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

OK - my $.02. I love to race. Will do 4 days at Nats or Divisionals!!
No matter what the index is, the average spectator still won't understand throttle stops. When we were at E-town for the nationals, a few spectators came to our pit area and asked about our type of racing.
Tom explained to them the concept and told them to watch the sportsman races from the top end. He told them this is where they will see all the "action".
They came by after the races and thanked him. Said it was the best time they had at the races in a long time and that the sportsman racing was great!!
We need to educate the fans, as it doesn't seem like NHRA is doing it!!

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I Think We Should Run Flat Out , In Reverse, With High Gear Only......... But I'm Sure Some One Would Build Something Bigger. & Faster To Screw Up That Class Up To............................its Not The The Index.....its Everyone That Overbuilds For The Index.....................................but Then Again, When I Started ....it Was Without A Delay Box And Using A Nut & Bolt......&...... Look Where We're At Now..............but Thats Just My Opinion....and You Know What They Say About Opinions.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wsm

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I agree with Lynn! I think for the most part we are not seeing the big picture. In a perfect world, we would only need 3 days at a national event. Weather and oil downs happen and the schedule needs to allow for that. Does everyone on here remember the post about N.H.R.A. being sold and speculation of not having sportsman racing at a national event?? No one was complaining about how the events were run then. Personally I think it is an awsome experiance to see John Force ride through your pit and wave to you as your eating a burger, or driving under the Bud car on your way up to the lanes as they are unloading from the transporter. Let face it, we are all a profitable fill in for the N.H.R.A. The big picture as to why we do it???? Ask Chris D, or Lynn, just to name a few. I bet there was no complaining in their camps after they help up " the big Wally"

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

OK, it's time for Mr. Long-Winded to chime in. I'll keep this as short as I possibly can.

1. Regarding lowering the indexes, I would really see this as a move to appease the racers more than the spectators. As others have alluded to, lowering the indexes would generally just mean an increase in cost. Initially, it would mean less time on the stop, but people would then continue to make their cars go faster and faster to gain the speed advantage at the top end. And, as we all know, speed = money.

I personally believe that one of the reasons why Top Sportsman and Top Dragster has seen a surge in popularity is because racers found out that it was fun to race their fast cars all out. Of course, these same competitors still race S/G and S/C when they are forced to do so or the opportunity arises, but for the most part I think they'd rather run their cars all out.

So, my suggestion would be to add a 7.90 class, rather than lowering the indexes across the board. This would allow those that didn't want to spend the extra money to go faster to stay where they are. And those that want to go faster, could. I would expect you would see an equal shift of cars from one to the next. People currently running S/C that could go faster than 7.90 and either wanted to run their cars all out, would move up, and because it would be a new class and the car count would initially be lower, some would move up simply to race against less cars. I would then expect to see others in S/G and S/St also move up to S/C and S/G as the average speed and car counts in those classes dropped (as the faster cars move up to the next class, the average speed in the class they just left would decrease).

Now, what I don't immediately know how to address is how this new class would fit into the existing National Event schedule / quota system. Obviously, NHRA isn't going to want an extra 80 sportsman competitors at their events, and I don't think anyone would be happy if the number of races that their class was contested was reduced by a third. So, from NHRA's standpoint the potential downside of adding a class would be that each class would have less cars, AND they'd have to pay out more money to cover the cost of the new class (as would the contingency sponsors). Then, we'd all have to have the discussion about what we'd prefer; the addition of a faster class, or leave things as is and simply take the extra money that would be paid to this new class and instead split it among the 3 existing classes to raise the payout in them.

In the end, I'm not sure what I would do. I don't see the addition of a 7.90 class as a sure thing. But, it might be an interesting experiment.

2. As for reducing national events to 3 days, I think that is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Rock must be a moron to think that. Who wants to take less vacation days off of work, spend less time sitting around the track doing nothing, and spend more time with their families?

Sheer stupidity. ;)

Next Rock is going to suggest trying to find a way to eliminate the insurance surcharge, or re-institute the one free crew pass per car entered policy.

Pfffft. I like giving NHRA all of my money, and we all know they need it more than we do. :mad:

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Definately Sounds Like A Much More Educated Plan...............................& I Write My Entry Fees Off As A Charitable Deduction..............make Them 6 Days...............who Wants To Work..........!!

Good Job

Wsm

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Thanks for the compliment! And I agree...I'd much rather be racing than working. There's just this small part about earning money that I personally have to address. Of course, if I won more....

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Jason, did you really try to keep that short??

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

OK, probably not. I probably should have gone back through to try to edit it down a little. But, I said my peace...

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Thanks Jason.....I think moron is an improvement for me.....

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

In my opinion Mr. Oldfield is right on target. If we could take away the throttle stops and get back to a fixed stop we could all race side by side and save a bunch of $$$$ because we would need 540's 632's or superchargers.
Guys like Ernie Kendal could still race in top dragster.
Thants My 2 cents worth.
Billy Baer 3391 S/C

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

No problem Rock. I know you've been called worse. Plus, considering the topic of your post in this thread, I'm as big a moron as you are (well, even if I didn't agree with you, I'm sure there are plenty out there that would still think I was a big moron).

Yikes! Mr. Oldfield! I feel like I'm in court. Hopefully that's just some southern hospitality. Either that or I'm older than I feel...

But, at least I was right in somebody's eyes... :D

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

they gona do the 3 day nats for the sportsman racer's aka a SportNats in each div. we won't go to nats as we know them now. (works for me) jim


ol time s/st racer well back in 2000 anyway
PS go fast gary going south again this year ?

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

opps gary this year = 08 lmao jim

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

The plan is to go to 2 of three, at this pt not sure which two Jim

Gary

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Jason,

I would quote your comments but IT IS TOO DAM LONG. So the shortening of the National Event is a thumbs up from my side. (Good call Rock) The reason that you do not understand why we would "STUPIDLY" want to shorten the time we spend at the national events is that YOU DONT RACE THEM! When you work, run a buisness or just take the time away x8 national events ( which I plan on running this year) it is alot of time that could be used more appropriately. For those people who run 1-2 national events per year, you wouldn't understand..

For example to run a national that is (average) 6 hours of drive time. You have to tech on Wednesday so you need to leave on Tuesday night. So that is 3 days off work (if you dont work weekends)

and lets not forget Divisionals only need 1 day off x8 races

3 Days x 8 nationals = 24 days off
1 Day x 8 divisionals = 8 days off
totals 32 days off

Now I am not speaking for EVERYONE but who the hell has 32days to be able to take off to compete in a season. and that is not counting open races, association races, big dollar bracket races ect.

besides we do nothing 95 percent of the time at nationals. CUT US 1 day!

and as far as the class changing......STUPID.....want to go fast....race top dragster / top sportsman! Besides we all know that if the numbers change we all will just have to step the cars up and go faster AGAIN then what?

What the Sportsman NEED is a simple show on ESPN to explain the basics of bracket racing and index racing. I honestly believe that if you can get together a good show that explains and teaches the audience we could 1) Promote our racing 2) get more people to invest in our racing (sponsors, new racers, ect) 3) make people like us (average hobby guys) "somebody" to the TV audience.
Now that is cool!

P.S. Sorry (I feel like Jason)

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Now Your Talking................enter Bob Frey......the Educator..................sounds Like Good Business...........................not Everyone Has A Chance To Grow Up At The Races, Run A Jr. Then Move Into A Big Car..............................................w ould Be Like An Educated Version Of Pinks, Only With A Little More Hair.............come On Chris......" Build It & They Will Come "..sound Like A Plan

Wsm

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Just break it into sections like this Chis...then it doesn't seem so bad!

Didn't I put a smiley face after my "stupid" comment? I usually do when I'm being sarcastic. If not, I can understand why people may have misconstrued my "stupid" comment as sheer stupidity.

In short, yes it is true that I do not race as many national events as some on here, and racing in S/St certainly limits my opportunities to begin with. But, whether I hit 1 or 8 national events in a year, my time is STILL VERY VALUABLE to me. I work for whitey, so when I'm taking a day off, I have to request it, and use one of my limited number of vacation days to do so. Plus, unlike most, I work up until the VERY LAST MINUTE before I get on the road to go to a national event. As such, I typically miss my first time shot because S/St runs first, and I'm usually still parked outside waiting to get parked. But, that's what happens when you drive all night on Wednesday to get there (not to mention you get stuck with the worst pit spot in the place).

In addition, in most cases when I go away to a race, I leave my family behind, not because I want to, but because my wife simply finds it too difficult to care for 3 children and a dog by herself while locked up in a motorhome for the weekend.

So, please don't think I don't understand, because I probably understand better than most. And this is not meant as a slam Chris, but if you think your time is valuable now, just wait 15 years and see how valuable it is. Ask your dad...he can tell you what adding a family does to your free time...

Wow...you get to get there on Wednesday? You're lucky.

I hear you there brother, and totally agree.

Generally agree again. Changing the classes is NOT the answer (and I don't think you meant to insinuate that's what I suggested). Adding a 7.90 class like I suggested MAY help, but even then I don't have an extremely high confidence level in that (maybe 50%).

The problem is that even if you do this, you're still left with one very big problem...the .90 classes are particularly boring to watch from the starting line. Here come all these cool looking cars, doing cool burnouts, only to leave the starting line about as fast as my wife's Caravan. In contrast, the Super Stockers (and some Stockers) are leaving with the wheels in the air, and getting the attention of the spectators (and even they can't hold their interest!)

This is not to say that I don't like the .90 classes, because I personally do, but I also compete in them, so I, along with most of us on this board, are biased. My uncle, who raced professionally, and who goes to just about every race that I do to help me, doesn't sit in the stands to watch the .90 cars run. When he goes to Indy with his Top Eliminator club tickets, when the Pros are over, he leaves. He fully understands what is going on in the .90 classes, they're just B - O - R - I - N - G to watch, and always will be as long as we're racing with throttle stops (and though I'd love to see the elimination of electronic throttle control devices, I'm not even proposing that here - boring racing is just unfortunate side affect of throttle stops, plain and simple.)

Another example is the guy that lives across the street from me. He used to race Pro Gas with his motorcycle (along with bracket racing it at the local track). Again, he knows what is going on as he's watching, but at the same time I can't tell you how many times he's told me, "That class you race is about as entertaining as watching paint dry." What does he love to watch? Yep, you guessed it, the pros.

In the end, I love racing S/G and S/St, and personally would much rather watch a full day of sportsman racing than the Pros. But, you have got to face facts here that we're in the MASS minority, and no amount of education is going to make the casual fan find our type of racing entertaining to watch. Will it be MORE entertaining than it was because they understand it more? Sure. But, it will NEVER, EVER be as entertaining to them as the pros, or any other heads-up, first one to the finish line category.

Let the fargin flames begin!

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

Jason..As always a long winded whimzical load of horse pucky. First off as far as this dream of working more days due to NHRA awnsering your need for a 3 day National I hope it never happens because so many more people will find it so doable that entry will be filled on 80% of events before it gets to grade 6 level.Its simply a dream come true for way to many AKA if you build it they will come theory. Second AND I SAID IT BEFORE some of us raced with throttle bolts and weight in the trunk and nobody wanted to watch super classes then any more then now.

.If you want people to watch you need to move the grandstands to 1000 ft mark HAHA and only allow nine inch tires on cars with more then 700 HP and do away with traction compond.Get my drift , the fans want a SHOW.


Brian Mac Millan
AKA Fat Bastard
Crew chief Mac Millan & Wife Racing S/G Camaro
past driver in S/ST & S/G

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

I guess what it really comes down to is this:
The fans in the stands watch the Pros (and this is more directed at TF and NFC) because it's entertainment. The Sportsman classes? We're RACING!!

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

It's hard to say what the answer is....But certainly any way to make it shorter would be nice...In other forms of motorsports, guys(and gals) don't get to compete on the same track at the same event as the pro's do...and we are a nice cash influx...so we have to come up with win win solution....so both parties benefit...other wise they won't change anything...I'm sure you guys can come up with some solutions.....

How about a couple things you don't like and you solution to remedy it...maybe we will stumble on to something....

Rock Haas's issues
1. Long National events..too much time off work(yes I work)....

Change to 3 day events where possible...2 time runs for super classes

2. NHRA's procedures for anything..They have few...

How about setting some procedures up so everybody knows what happens when this happens or that happens...such as a rain delay....or getting a car approved for stock or super stock...or when you take too long to stage(just joking)....right now you just sit there and hope...

3. Exposure for sportsman classes ...there is little or none..

How about focusing on 1 sportsman class per national event(and rotate them)..I'm not sure what that means but maybe like the sportsman spotlight...so people know that they can do this....and supporters know that they can get involved for less than 2 million...

4. Also it looks like a divison against division meet might be interesting...

this should turn into a long thread....Jason don't crash the server....

Re: question for the 90 guys and gals
 

[QUOTE=CBS;47907]
3. Exposure for sportsman classes ...there is little or none..

How about focusing on 1 sportsman class per national event(and rotate them)..I'm not sure what that means but maybe like the sportsman spotlight...so people know that they can do this....and supporters know that they can get involved for less than 2 million...

This would be nice. Not sure how as the winners of each class aren't even shown when they air the Sportsman (AKA Alcohol Class) Eliminations!!

Chris, still not sure how you got your win aired !!!