Indy Teardown Warning
 

A member sent me this email below that they received from the D1 Stock Super Stock rep. I am surprised it has not been brought up sooner. This also may have something to do with the newly purchased digital scanner by NHRA. From what I here from the grape vine, they will be looking at cylinder heads with this scanner. The question I have, with the lack of tech officials and man power how did they possible get all the heads scanned, there has to be hundreds of heads used today. Shouldn't they have told Stock and Super Stock this will be the new standard. Also when scanning, do they take into account core shift. I also heard this was a major concern with the Showdown cars, maybe that's the reason for the low car count for Indy.

Interesting topic and I would like to here more opinions good or bad.


Unfortunately I had to delete the email as a request by the sender. In my opinion we should know whats going, this is why I posted it. Although I am a D1 racer I don't receive emails from the D1 rep because of my affiliation with Class Racer, draw your own consultations. NHRA has made their own announcement on this subject.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

First of all, anything to maintain the integrity of Stock Eliminator is
good, IMHO. My question is, and we will use a 396/375 HP combo
for this example: NHRA tears down three of these combos, and
digitizes the heads. One has heads by Gary Hettler, one has heads
by K.B. Racing(Line Performance), and one has heads by Jeff Taylor.
Which one becomes the new standard? J.R.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Sounds like a 2 tenth slowdown coming to a town near you lol.



On the head question

I'd say the one that passes is the one that matches the completely
stock casting head as per factory or the approved nhra head of choice would be my guess, but idk.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

The ones from Edelbrock or Chevrolet

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

None of the above. You can only assume NHRA has been scanning untouched OEM heads, you know "stock".

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LOL........It sounds like there won't be as many stock racers crying to get an increase of the Quota so they can enter to me. At least the really fast ones.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

How will they deal with intake manifolds that have no 'spec'?

Tough to put the genie back in the bottle..... -Al

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

So if the stock castings, assuming NHRA can locate the hundreds of
castings that are in the guide, are the new "Required" runner shapes,
but the cc's are the current published ones, will the trend return to
acid dipping(or whatever new process' are available) to get to the
desired cc's? The sharp head people out there won't roll over and
retire. I see more expense coming for a lot of racers. J.R.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

They may not have a "spec" but they sure can scan them as well. I guess Cdn intakes are going up in price. LOL

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Anyone who actually encounters the process of having the head scanned @ Indy want to volunteer to inform the rest of us how it's actually put into practice....

I'm new to this game, but have been lead to understand that in years past certain things became "Accepted" based on the first head or some other parts because NHRA didn't have an OEM one to spec so they spec'd off the first one through teardown.. Meaning the "scan" could be based on the guy who gets scanned first not the actual untouched head... I have little faith NHRA has sought out each and every head in the book to scan them prior to using this new technology.. I also have little faith the Manufacturer's..those that are still in business would provide them with a CAD file they could use to compare a fresh scan to.. So what are the basing the legality of a scan off of?? They may have picked up scans of all allowable "Showdown" cars as that is only a handful of heads to scan.. but for the rest of us this seems to be a little less enforceable.. I can tell you if my untouched heads are deemed illegal because another car that had heads that had been massaged on gets scanned first, this technology will in fact be useless to me...

just my .02

Brad

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Agreed. But like the heads...how would they determine what's 'stock'?

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Sounds like Wesley will be at Indy.

Greg

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

I think Wesley will be at Indy.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Moved to a new thread.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

This sounds like something from the past.

At the Sportsnationals, in the late 70's, there was a sign posted on the return "road SS/AA turn here".
NHRA did not, at that time, disqualify any cars. They did learn a LOT about the cars by having them all sitting at the same place, at the same time. I expect it allowed NHRA to determine the cars that were constructed to the extremes of the rules and address technical discrepancies from there.
The FS cars that come with CNC'd heads certainly need to be held to a more finite set of standards than 60's and 70's products. I have a story about C/SM and Chev 461 heads that's too long to relate here.

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Here is a real simple scenario that could play out and potentially cover a lot of cars in a reasonable amount of time. After the last qualifying run on Wednesday park all the cars in an area near the teardown barn and ask everyone to remove their carburetors or throttle bodies. The tech officials could take one of the readily available high-quality video probes and take a look down the intake manifolds for anything that may be suspicious. Depending on the time available, the suspicious intakes could be pulled then and inspected or sealed and those cars will get an automatic invitation to teardown. It’s clear there is a new Sheriff and Deputy in town!

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On the older cars they look at the "texture" of the cast,and run a finger in the runner.If it don't look or feel right your gone.Red Anderson(div.4) had one of those magic fingers. gsa612

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Be thankful they're taking this a bit more seriously. They could solve this problem with a stroke of their pen. Imagine a rule book entry like "stock intake and exhaust valve diameter required; any other head modification allowed" and "any intake manifold or modification allowed as long as the material matches the orginal and it fits the stock carb".


I think more races are won and lost on the drag strip than in the teardown barn.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Wow you really don’t understand class racing...

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

From what I have been told NHRA is trying to bring things back under control based on a incident that happened in the recent past. Wesley will lead in this endeavor.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

I don't see where this will have any effect on the super stock class. Super stock is allowed almost any head modifications, porting, welding, chamber modifications. The only real thing to check on a super stock head is the runner and chamber volumes and valve size and angle. Maybe the casting number.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Here is another question I have and some more thoughts... I would like everyone's input. If your cylinder is scanned and found to be illegal, what will the penalty be. Also, after the penalty is served how with they verify you have corrected the issue. In the past when you have an illegal part, and once you have served your time you have to show your division tech director that you have corrected the issue. Will NHRA issue scanners to all divisions, at $60,000 a pop its hard to believe NHRA will equip each division their own scanner.

From what here, the 2008 and newer combos are going to be scanned as they have all late model heads scanned and are ready to compare them to their collected data. Will they take into account for core shift or worn out molds that will change over time?

I am all for keeping a fair playing field, but be careful what you wish for, the old combo's will probably be next starting with all the Edelbrock replacement heads. And as we all know most combos have done some type of head work, lets not kid ourselves, will all know this. The rule says no modifications to the heads expect where noted. But when you are in teardown the only thing they are concerned with is grinding marks and volume, now that's all going to change it seems.

My thoughts on this are mixed, yeah I want there to be a fair playing field, but in the middle of the season and right before Indy (the only real place you get torn down) the game has changed. The racers I feel for, and I guess I am included and it probably includes most racers running a 2008 and newer combos, is we don't do our own engines and rely on the engine builder. With that said we are responsible for our combos and have to deal with the consequences

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

I worked with Wesley back in the early 70's and found him to be one of the best. He was tough but fair. I consider it an honor to have been with him in the tear down barn at Gainesville.

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WOW ! You really nailed your response right on the money to this one James.

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Well, based on the number of entries for Indy nobody is flinching....we shall see if that changes as Bowling Green concludes. Regardless of the digitized master data there would be some sort of tolerance for items Ken brings up. Question is how subjective is that tolerance?

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Wesley was on the tech team when I set the record in C/SA in 1992. He was just as you described "tough but fair".

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Here is my take on this if you are buying a "stock" engine where very little modifications are allowed and paying $25000 you know very well they are doing something extra. You want a engine that will pass tech (in its current form) not necessarily a legal to the letter of the law engine.

Good news is since modifying the head and intake is not allowed. all you need to do is pick up a set of original heads and intake and bolt them on since modifications were never allowed it shouldn't slow down much.

FYI the term "you" means all people buying there power not just Ken.

I applaud NHRA for doing this it should have been done long ago the technology has been there. The price has probably just came down. It may take time for them to get to some of the hard to find odd combinations. But I would bet they have the popular combinations scanned already.

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Hmmmm stock heads, stock valve springs, stock camshaft profile......In stock eliminator, what a concept!

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I don't see the price coming down as it will cost thousand to fix if you are not in complacence with there scan. And with all do respect you do not take into account core shift. Thousand of the heads that are in production can not possible be all the same.

If you think this will bring more people back to Stock, your are sadly mistaken. They take away tech at nationals to streamline the races because NHRA does not have the personnel. They shorten the races for the sportsman because they don't have the personnel. We can not park on Monday the week of Indy because they don't have the personnel. Many races they are short handed, I don't understand where the NHRA brass has come up the the resources and funds to push this agenda in Stock. I was told there will be 40 cars torn down at Indy and they may be torn down during qualifying. The more I here about what they are doing the more bizarre it gets.

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Stock is just the name of the Class, it has little to do with the meaning. Every single car in Stock can be sited for an infraction of the rules, its all up to the tech official discretion.... is this the road you really want to go down.

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Wesley is tough but fair. The first time I meet him was at Baytown with my ex-66 Chevy II. I had called him previously and asked a lot of questions as to be legal. I pull into the tech area and walk up to Wesley introduce myself and he says real nice car Ed wrong trim on the trunk don’t bring it back like that again. Yes sir!

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

It all changed in 1985 with the valve spring and cam rules being opened up. The RPM potential then required after market rods because of several blown engines, special lifters because of the unreal spring pressures being used, and later roller rockers when more complained about broken rocker arms. Then the playing with the head valve bowels and ports became mandatory to keep up the fast guys that caused more RPM's due to better air flow. I can assume being under staffed was because the tech guys who were competent became old, tired of the BS, and died off like my friend Marty Barratt ! Today NOTHING about a fast running stocker is stock. I have said it over and over to the NHRA people back in the 80's and 90's yet NOTHING was ever done about any of it. It was like talking to a brick wall ! I think where NHRA messed up was allowing ANY valve spring pressures. They should have limited the spring press to the same for everyone someplace around 150 lbs on the seat and 350 lbs open which if I remember right was the stock spring pressure for the 426 street Hemi's and 440 6 packs. Oh well ancient history !

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Sorry should have been more clear on the Price comment. I was talking about the cost of the technology to scan the heads. Came down to where it is do able for NHRA.

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You guys need to realize the rules for heads have changed over the years. For example, any valve job is legal as long as it’s done off the center of the guide with a cutter. It will be a cluster if all of a sudden someone doesn’t like how something looks and everything measures right and there are no grinding marks, no welding or no epoxy. It’s really hard to have consistent rule enforcement if it’s subjective and not objective. When the sportsmen racers got representatives about 10 years ago, I was the rep for d-3. I was at Gainesville that year, 2008, and talked to several of the National tech guys.

One of the things that was on the minds of a lot of the officials and a lot of the racers was consistent rule enforcement from division to division. What was good in D-1 might not be good in D-5. The rules have to be made so they are easily enforced. The days of someone running their finger in an intake port and feeling it won’t cut it now day. I’m not a real high tech guy and don’t know anything about digitizing heads, however on the older cars with cast iron heads the same casting number can vary greatly from one head to another. On the new cars with CNC ports I’m sure digitizing would be possible.

One other little item I’ll throw out there is that there are aftermarket heads approved for stock eliminator combinations that are 20 cc too big on the intake runner as cast. The idea that something is drastically wrong with how the rules are enforced is wrong headed in my view. I haven’t heard any racers saying that they want things like they were 30 years ago. I have a similar view to Ken in that if you try to do things that are not consistent and objectively enforceable you could lose a bunch of racers. This battle was fought 10-12 years ago.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

Gotcha, yeah technology does get cheaper as time goes on, but 60,000 seems like a lot to invest for just Stockers. NHRA is the place to race if you are a Stocker, so if this is the way it is going to be, we will just have to adjust. It just would have been nice to know this before the season started.

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Just my opinion, if your heads are good it shouldn't matter when rule change takes effect. I appluad it but dont know what NHRA data base will be to justify a good or bad head. My 307 Olds head is so stock it would probably get tossed.
Disclaimer: not stating anyone is cheating with an Olds head or ANY head.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

In my mind that is exactly what they are trying to do with using the scanner it will take all subjectivity away. The number of Tech people that can look at a 1962 head and say if it looked right or not are getting very hard to find. I am assuming that there will be a tolerance of some type built in for core shift and wear. In my mind it is better than the free for all that is happening today.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

But $60,000 is not too much to ensure parity in the showdown classes.
Let's imagine what we can accomplish by digitizing a bunch of "stock" heads:
(A) NHRA can get a handle on the hanky-panky going on in the showdown classes. We all know there is something to CNCing your own heads to a given port volume.
(B) NHRA can ensure that the Edelbrock heads are as "stock" as they came from Edelbrock
(C) It's common knowledge that some of the 60's/70's "stocker" heads have widely varying port shapes depending on how long a manufacturer uses core molds.

But who really knows the discrepancy(s)?

How are the builders "tuning up" these castings?

NHRA can now qualify the extent of these variables and use that information to discern the competitors pushing the boundaries of the rules.
I would anticipate that currently there is not a big enough database to qualify ,or disqualify, most OEM castings. There are probably some castings that are modified outside the range of credulity, those racers should be the ones to fear inspection.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

I find this thread very interesting because during my career as a machine shop supervisor for a fortune 500 company we had a CMM in the shop. It did not have a laser attachment but used a probe. I attend classes for the purpose of learning the software and hardware concerning this piece of equipment for two weeks. My best operator attended classes for about four weeks and was very good at using this for a number of purposes.

In 1991 when the company purchased this machine it cost $56,000.00.It was a Browne & Sharpe 7-10-7. Smaller ones were cheaper but still not significantly. I don't know what a CMM with a laser attachment that had the ability to perform a 3D scan on a cylinder head would cost today. I feel comfortable saying that if NHRA were to start doing this at national events it would be best to contract someone to do this because of the complexity of this procedure. Being able to compare the scanned data to the CAD file of a know stock head would take a talented and well trained professional.

I am not saying this can or cannot be done at Indy but, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen.

Re: Indy Teardown Warning
 

This is chasing a problem that most racers are not concerned about. For the old cast iron heads it will be next to impossible to do. For the factory show down cars if one of the racers get a good port, the factory will just have someone make 25 sets with that port and introduce it as a replacement head. Stock eliminator is limited by the cam lift, the manifold, the compression ratio, and the weight of the reciprocating assembly, and most importantly the horsepower rating. As always the folks that work the hardest and spend the most money will run the fastest.

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Maybe they thought this would be a good way to get rid of us without having to pay a bunch of lawyers fees!