Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I want to get the car to "wheel stand" without changing the ride height of the car. If I drop the front of the bars down one more hole , which naturally increases the pinion angle also , without moving the housing down , do you think it makes the car more wheel stand prone?
There is a point , I guess , where dropping the bar down becomes counter productive and you just HAVE to change the ride height.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Raising the front of the bar will make it want to wheel stand more.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Without changing the ladder bar location is the rear end housing floating on the leaf spring perch? if its too tight then it's binding and this will kill your effort. . Luke SS311

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

No , everything's loose and oiled ( WD-40 ).

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Not necessarily. That depends on where he is at now? Raising the bar moves the instant center rearward and higher and hits the tire harder. That may or may not make it try to wheel stand more?

Really not enough information to answer the question. A good general starting point with ladder bars is make the bottom bar parallel with the bottom of the car not the ground. Give it 2-5 degrees of downward pinion angle and see what happens.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

If you are not using floating spring perches, it is binding. WD40 is not a good lube. I ran ladder bars with leaf springs back in the '70s. On 10.5" tires. Hooked better when I went to mono leafs, then still better with the floaters.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Ed , of course I'm using floaters.......and they are not binding.
I'll move the bars up a hole and see what happens............for some reason I always assumed going down makes it more wheel stand prone......:confused:

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Use some good moly grease to lube everything. Mine was a C/Super Modified '69 Camaro. 302" on 10.5" tires. Making it wheel stand was never an issue. Don't think I ever moved the bars up or down.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Just don't move the bars past level with the bottom of the rocker panel. Mine has a down angle of 1-2 degrees. Horsepower and good chassis is what will make the car get up in the front. Moving the bar down will make it hit the tire harder.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I have had the car VERY wheel stand prone in the past..........to the point of damaging stuff.
Since I lowered the ride height in the rear it wont..........so to recover ( some ) I either move the bars or lower the housing on the perches.....I dont want to raise the azz end up a hole on the perches , sooo.........past level?
I'm already slightly down a degree or so............so I either go down more:confused: or up 1 hole as has been suggested.
The consequence of breaking parallel , at least from going DOWN some is already noted. The result of going UP is not.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I have been racing a ladder bar leaf spring car for a very long time and admit I struggle with them. I bought Tim Morgans Doorslammers The Chassis book many years ago and have always thought moving the bars up hits the tire harder not down as stated in the book? So I just did a search and talk about information overload! Total opposite diagrams from different vendors for hits tire harder by raising or lowering the front of the bar. No wonder people are confused. I am! I don't post here often but read a lot. Thanks and hopefully some of this will help the person that started the thread.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I've SEEN THE SAME THING. Apparently the theory for 4 links and ladder bars is not quite the same.
Trial and error............:confused:

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

[QUOTE=b.guggenmos;546274]Not necessarily. That depends on where he is at now? Raising the bar moves the instant center rearward and higher and hits the tire harder. That may or may not make it try to wheel stand more?

This is good information. The higher into the chassis the front of the bar goes, the more tire hit, because you're getting less "leverage" against the chassis. The result of that loss of leverage is that the tire is driven into the track harder. The other side of the equation is that when the front attaching point of the bar is lowered, the car still may not wheelstand a great deal, because it simply may not have enough power to "lift" the chassis.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I can tell you from experience with my car that if the bottom of the ladder bar is running on an upward angle in comparison to the frame of the car it will not hook the tires. A slight downward angle has always been better on my car. 3150 Lbs. and it will 60 ft in the 1.28 - 1.29 range when the air is good. This is with a PG.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I'm NOT DOUBTING YOU.....I'm just sayin'.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

I'll try to keep this short.
You lowered your car and it doesn't wheelstand as much. When the center of gravity is lower in relation to the rear axle the car will not transfer weight as easily.
Did you lower the front at the same time?
I expect the solution can be found in the front suspension. How much travel? How much stored energy? What is your front spring rate?

I'm assuming your car is still a stick. Have you made any clutch changes? How hard does it hit the tires on the starting line? Do the tires slip or dead hook? Does the rear suspension squat, or lift?

Raising or lowering the center of rotation (ladder bar eye) primarily affects the reaction of force applied to the rear tires.
Lengthening the center of rotation affects the point of lift in relation to the longitudinal center of gravity, not an option for your ladder bars.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Very good post.Hope to see more.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Nothing has changed except the ride height in the rear..........IIRC.
Mark seems to know you................?

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

No, I don't, but he seems to know something about chassis (plural) and suspensions

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

On my 68 Camaro the front of the ladder bars are angled downward, it always leaves with the wheels up. The 66 Nova I used to own had the front of the bars angled up when I first bought it and it had no adjustments. I had a guy weld new brackets on it and angled the front of the bars downward. The first race with it like that it broke 1 rear shock and cracked both upper shock mounts. I was always under the impression that with them angled downward it would leave harder. I do know that front and rear ride height can really effect weight transfer.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Thanks for the compliment Mark.
Actually Joe we might, I have made more than a few passes at Atlanta Dragway a couple of decades ago.

As I recall your car is more of an "old school" setup. A lot of folks used to basically lock the front end down and didn't pay attention to the quality of the (limited) front end travel.

The front end needs to be (very) free to travel, the springs need to contain a lot of stored energy to allow the weight transfer to take place, and the shocks need to control the rate of reaction. Then you can control the height of the wheelstand (if need be) with front end travel.

I'll enclose a picture. This truck was built as a super stocker, with ladder bars and coil overs, they upgraded the front end components and got this result.
I haven't seen it on scales, but it's pretty nose heavy. No big chunks of lead in the back of the truck.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

if you tore up shocks and or brackets,, you were most likely either bottoming out or topping out the shock itself

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Good info above. Also, I always remove the teeth from the ends of a new set of upper control arm bushings, and put longer bolts through them, ground to length to bottom out, that come out just tight enough I can rotate the big washer, but no end play. If you pick up the control arm & ball joint (not connected the the spindle, of course) and drop it without it falling back down, it is too tight. I lube the inner shaft with a good moly lube, since the bushing will now be rotating on the shaft. Drilling the bolts for a grease zerk, with a cross drilled hole makes keeping them lubed and moving freely won't hurt. Did all this back in the 1960s with my old '56 Chevy Jr Stocker. Zero track prep back then, and 7" tires. You get creative. My present car is done the same way. It does not know a slick track.
Also, back off the lower control arm inner shaft bolts a bit. Everything (IMHO) should move freely. Longer coils, wound from smaller diameter wire for more stored energy. Shocks controlling how fast they move, travel limiters (Mine are cables) controlling how far they move, it should hook anywhere. Controlling, not trying to do, wheel stands will be your new pastime. Front shocks are a big deal. don't cheap out. There is a big difference there. Look into Santuf shocks. And, having an Eastexas race car doesn't hurt anything.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

OK
Thanks for the replies. Tom , yeah its "old school"............but old school is still OK. I have already applied most of what you are saying over the years , but its good to bring it up again.
Don't forget though ,like I said this car WAS very wheel stand prone and I wanted to tame it down. The ride height change was more cosmetic with the side effect of virtually eliminating wheel stands. I just didn't expect it. So without going back where I was I tried recovering some of it ( by applying what was suggested "Tom" ) just to get the car to work the way I wanted it to. Without much success.
As I got under the car today I see the top hole ( front ladder bar ) , which is 1 hole above the current location , was never used and I'd have to beat the floor pan a little to get the bar in that top hole. So I decided to lower the housing 1 hole on the floaters instead......that C/G thing should be applied here.
Ed , I did use moly lube and yep they slide easier...........I was reluctant to use it because it attracts dirt.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

OK......
Finished.......that change made the azz end sit exactly 1 inch higher. This should be interesting........I'll follow up in a week or so.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Ed, all good points, especially shocks. Good cars deserve good shocks. My modified Camaro, in 1987, had Koni shocks all of the way around, double adjustable in the rear. Big money back then for a guy bolting motors together for a living.
These tires nowadays seem to want the car to do it's thing a little smoother, locking the front end travel down (like the old days) seems to just shock the car when the travel stops. The car pitches forward and gets a big bounce. Good shocks let you control the travel to the limiters without snapping the rotation too fast (allowing more total travel). More total travel lets the car settle more smoothly from a wheelstand without that big bounce.
With a stick, we have to put the clutch into the equation. Got to control the clutch and tire slippage at the hit.
I agree about the control arm bolts and serrations Ed. I'm pretty picky there. For the Camaro (1st gen) Nova front ends I'll green loctite the upper shaft bushing bolts just as the washer begins to drag on the rubber bushings. I want to use full shoulder bolts on the lower pivots and not crush the frame on the bushings when I tighten them. I'll use full metal lock nuts to control how hard I'm squeezing the subframe.

But, I expect that some of the "new style" control arm bushings are probably less finicky than what I'm used to. I don't build as many race cars anymore. I am going to try some pretty soon.

As an aside, if you happen to be putting together a street car (think restoration). I don't recommend tightening the upper and lower control arm pivot bolts (with serrations) until the car is assembled and at ride height. Those serrations can add or subtract some ride height/spring rate.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

No, nothing wrong with "old school" as long as it's not just old. It happens all of the time, those good older parts just want the attention they once received.

In a perfect world I would adjust the housing ends of the ladder bars to mitigate the pinion angle change.

I'll not bore you with too many more opinions, go run that thing.

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

Buy Dave Morgans book. ""Doorslammers. A Chassis Book" It has everything you need to learn

Re: Ladder bar leaf spring guys
 

One size doesn't fit all. In terms of weight transfer a lot depends on stored energy-weight on the rear springs whether it be leaf or coil vs shock settings/valving. High bar pick-up points are fast reacting, low are slow. The first movement of the rear dampers(shocks) is to extend. The longer you can prolong/manage that movement the less the wheelstand. Specific damper valving plays a huge role as well .... linear-progressive or the modern regressive valving (pressure drop). Look at the rearend seperation on high hp cars in classes where wheely bars aren't allowed for clues. I'd say Bickle's Chassis book is far and away the best. You'll never stop learning from it if you have the ability to read between the lines and/or critically think. Generic idea's/explanations never reach the levels most all strive for.