Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

I love the fact that after Q2, 3 of the top 5 are U/SA cars. Even if they are FFFords.
I wonder where my 307 could have qualified at it's factory rating of 130 HP?

Go B.J.!!!!

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Us slow guys stick together....

Go BJ !!!!!!!

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Two FFFords and A Mercury in the top five. Nice work with the pen NHRA. This is not to take away from BJ, Gary or Brian, just shows how oblivious NHRA's HP Committee is.

Now, lets get back to major problems like intakes, hoods and grills.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA never could have qualified.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Sure glad you didn't mention an inline, 1 bbl. 230 six cylinder @ 140 hp,
with V8 2 bbls in the 130's .

(not directed at my friends who play the hand they are dealt)

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):) Ron...c'mon now "hoss"...the pen scenario...has been in "place" for years with NHRA...!!!...it just comes & goes with variable combinations...no matter what the nameplate is...imagine that...was a victim years ago...penciled out of Modified Eliminator...when erased...and...just a REMINDER...it's only qualifying/class...@ moment...YOU still have to put a number on the windshield...create a "package" to go with that...to win...for sure not a ez task...no matter how far under one might be...how 'bout we all just acknowledge...some awesome performances...not sorta' put a asterisk...on or near 'em...lol...me...just a rootin'-tootin' cowboy for BJ & Mike...for personal reasons...don't really care...if...they accomplished #1...with a '58 Edsel...posture...the beauty of America 'eh...just my 2 cents...'nuff said !!! :):):) Drake p.s...yup I know...Marty,Brian,Gary,Bill (top5) all just fell into "gifts"...too...had nothing at all do with...EFFORT...;):D

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

It wasn't directed at my friends either Mark. It was directed at those making poor decisions in the NHRA Tech Dept.. I'm so happy for BJ and Mike!
Sorry Capt. Jack but how can you root against a lovely young lady who works on her own stuff and has the scars on her hands to prove it! AND in her spare time writes children's books.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Drake, if you read the previous post I stated."This is not to take away from BJ, Gary or Brian". They all worked hard to get them FFFords to run fast, no doubt about it. But, when you handed a killer combo with the stoke of a pen, it sure makes it easier. Three of the top five were given favorable factors. And you saw how far they can go under.

As you said this has been happening for years, but some of this stuff is just blatantly obvious. Gary & BJ have already been hit more than once with HP since last year, and they still qualify in the top five. BJ has brutalized the HP ratings and still flies. They work hard on their stuff and reaped the benefits. They got a good hand and played it well.

Just seems that U/SA is just a happy pen place, ie. The Banana Olds, McKays Regal, Shaw's Caddy & Capri, C-6 truck, Senia's Cimmaron, and the FFFord/Comet. They all were #1 qualifiers everywhere. Tell me another class where this has happened so frequently. But, hey, that is why I don't go to Indy, I cannot run 1.40 under.

Still, congratulations to BJ and Mike on your class win. Nice try Jack.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA think I'll try something easy like Comp.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Not so amazing or impressive when a combo gets 21 hp taken away in one big chunk a few years ago. Could be 30 or more. May have it mixed up with another combo that received a big gift from NHRA.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

I believe those 302 2-barrel Fords were rated at 170 just before the NHRA pen struck. Can anyone remember if that's what they were?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

I was thinking it was 164.

RB

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

I found an online story from the past the new NHRA factor went to 129 hp in 2013.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Found a retired tech guy who has a original class guide. In 1976 they were at 200.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Move almost any '70s car back to the factory horsepower rating and you have a number one qualifier.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Just saw a picture of Seaburg's Comet and his engine in the tear down barn (tent).
What size is the carb on those things. I can cover my total carb with a koolie cup. That thing looks huge.

It was nice seeing it among a bunch of newer cars though.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA standing out

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):)Hey Ron...for sure I didn't take your post "personally"...lol...know U are a good guy...have been entertained fairly often by your/posts... sense of humor...!!!...BUT...those of us following INDY Qualifying...know well who have the 3 Maverick/Comet/Mustang II racers are...AND they deservedly should receive ALL due accolades...for their efforts/success...the whole factor/pencil thing has been in play forever literally...feel pretty strongly...we (all)...just get over it...keep moving forward...the "advantage" like ALL others previously...won't last forever...think U well know that...BJ & Mike just a lil' bit like me in "geezerville"...lol...knowing a bit of their respective health issues...ALL their hard work...was just hard for me to not respond...we have own mountain to climb...Steve Sullivan...bless his heart...has the fastest legal M or N automatic 302 FI V-8 Ford car in the country...lil' rascal can go 1second plus (check Indy N-Class winner)...under pretty much anywhere...testament of lot of hard work/effort...lots of genuine admiration from us...'cause...us not being too "smart" @ all...with ALL double-throw-down trick stuff are "stuck" at .6-7...could drop ours (both) off a cliff presently...no faster...that's the "story"...and I'm stickin' too it...lol...we have NOTHING ...but admiration for fellow racers...that TRULY...ring the bell...not at all envious...we have no excuses !!! imagine that.. :):):) Drake

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Have nothing but respect for them to run that fast after being hit so many times. It is NHRA's factoring system that is controversial. When the Fords were dropped into U there were several on here that predicted their #1 qualifying potential, and were right. I believe that I had heard that Mike was trying to knock the crap our of the index and didn't mind the HP. Believe me I was rooting for him so them Fords would go to T. But all they did was run faster from hard work. But NHRA can't see that, or can they, or better yet, do they care.

It took years for the Banana car to get out of U, same as the trucks. And, like any smart racer, they're not going to hit it hard so they don't get refactored. They will stay in U as long as they want, isn't the Caddy still legal for U. I'll just plug along and avoid them as much as possible.

How about this. Since Indy went to the fastest 128, let them run eliminations off the index as it relates to qualifying. Nooo, can't have that, would be boring seeing two U/SA in the final, or a U/SA and Dyers FS car. Bet they would straighten the HP factors real quick.

Oh well, it is Indy, lets have a good time and watch what happens, eliminations be coming.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Index for elims.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Ron, The 302 has 1.08 venturi @133 original net HP.
The 307 has a 1.09 venturi @168 HP (original , 130)
Cam , compression, are similar. That was Billy's point here.
It is what it is.
My point would be, if the 307's were reduced to 130 tomorrow, there might be 2 or 3 built across the whole country within a couple of years.
Many more would just sit back and complain about the soft rating, rather than building one themselves.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):) Yikes Ron...that's why am sitting here in Carolinas'...reading about it...90 to qualify...@ #128...way better "cats" in Indy...than me/my stuff...!!! lol...not givin' up...anytime soon...just yet...but a tip of the "fedora" is well due to all 128+ !!! awesome job to ALL... :):):) Drake

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Mark, good point but it wasn't my point. You, Dwight and myself jointly sent a letter to the powers-that-be in the NHRA Tech Dept. years ago requesting that "obsolete" combos be given back HP or reduced to their factory rating. We got crickets from NHRA.
NHRA has always, in my humble opinion, been a "buddy club". We all pay the same dues but we don't all have to follow or play by the same rules. Certain members get certain considerations that the rest of us just aren't privy to. I guess that is just human nature but it's not fair. But then again, life ain't fair.
Do you really think that if NHRA dropped the factor on the 307 or the 304 or 318 (or 283,289,273,290,318poly,348,352,361,etc,etc,etc) only 2 or 3 would be built? I personally believe, looking at how many FFFords that have been or are being built, if you gave the un-washed masses a Chevy equivalent to the 302, there would be dozens of them out there. With the popularity of NHRA Stock, Nostalgia and Jr. Stock right now, I don't see how they wouldn't be built.
Oh well, you can have the soap box back, I'll go back to complaining about LD340s. It would be nice to see the 307 at 130 HP though, it would probably make me do a 350. And I don't fault those who take advantage of any of the NHRA "f**k-ups.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Ron, there is a more complicating issue with the Fords. While the Grahams and Summers have been hit several times this year, their current combinations are not included. That's the reason they both switched to Mustangs. The 163 factor for the 76 302 that was accomplished in the Maverick applies to every 1976 Ford model except the Mustang. The Mustang remains at 133. Every time I try to make sense out of that, I just spin in my chair and short circuit. Seeburg's Comet is still at factory rated 143 and has not been hit.

So it will take mega-years at this rate to get them straightened out, especially since there is a 10 year spread of cars (1971-1980) that those guys can resource.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Just to set the record straight, Brian Seaberg , Steve Horton, and a couple of other guys were racing the same 302 2 barrel Fords for years before NHRA reduced the HP ratings back to factory numbers. Seaburgs Comet was a P&Q/SA car at that time. In fact, I had considered building a 79 Fairmont 302 2 barrel 4 speed combo in the early 2000s, but at that time, NHRA had bumped pretty much all the 302-318 sized 2 barrel smogger engines to 200 HP, so building my 85 Mustang 302 4 barrel just made more sense. Over the recent past, NHRA dropped the 302 2 barrel engines down to 180, 170, and eventually 165HP, before reducing them down to their factory HP ratings, which varied from 129-145 depending on year and car model. Unlike many other more mainstream combos, at least these low HP Ford 302s are actually wearing their factory issued, correct part number heads, intake manifolds and carbs, not a bunch of NHRA approved, superceded "not worth a thing performancewise" aftermarket aluminum heads, intakes, and carburators.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Thanks Rory. good post.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

IF anyone involved in the technical dept had clue none of this would have happened ... none of it. It is insane you can write a letter and get a 200 hp combo to 133 and someone would approve it affecting over 200 combos and not even think "hmm maybe I should research this" Well here ya go this is what happens longtime racers with long standing combos like me and Ron get screwed. If shaw finds one combo I can follow him around get him hit .... 200 combos affected I'm dead I WILL NEVER win class at Indy again.
Anyway thanks pat c you've probably got next years #1 qualifier on your desk or in your inbox ...

Captain

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Thanks, Rory
I was going to mention those guys, but forgot.
Also, let's not forget.
Gary Summers was already setting stick shift records with the Mustang II when it was in the 170 range. It wasn't long after that the West Coast brain trust reduced them all to factory net HP.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Dwight, As you know, the Mustang II is a completely different platform.
At one time, the 72 Chevy 350 had five different factory, depending on the body style. There's a good argument for this, but it does seem a bit strange when the Corvette is rated less than the Nova.
In my opinion, NHRA came up with the AHFS so they'd have a computerized system that didn't require human forethought and intervention. That would take a few competent people, like in the old days.
Now we see how easily it can be manipulated.
So, it depends on how you want the game played, as far as certain body styles being hit. I'm still on the fence about that.

Here's one that bothers me. GT S/S was supposed to be for 1980 or newer cars.
Now, any year is okay.
So, if you have a 66 Chevy II stick car in regular S/S , and the HP gets too high, you just run it in GT. You don't even have to claim a 64 or 65 283 /220, which was the original intent of GT.
Does this make any sense to anybody?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Mark, I understand what you are describing in that different body-chassis considerations sometimes has an effect on the factoring decisions, but in the case of the '76 302, they hit the Maverick-Comet and the Granada-Monarch (different platform), but passed on the Mustang II. Puts wrinkles in my brow.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Good point. Hit possibly the worst one and not the best.
Goes to what I was alluding to..Incompetence

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Re-thinking my comment.
I was meaning to say was not many would be built for the national stage.
How many Tri- 5's do you see being built since they have been brought back?
Let's face it. Most guys that can afford the 5-6 points meet / National event entry game, can afford to build a fairly late model, 10 second car that does a big wheelie for the camera.
I didn't think about the independent S/SS association races.
Yes, you are probably right that several would be built for that venue.
But NHRA doesn't get much of a piece of that action, so there's no interest there.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):) Hey Billy...so... after all...the "smoke" with regard to top several qualifiers...it didn't seem to be that much in final results (?)...NEVER in anyway to take anything away from...incredible their.. accomplishments...in a word...AWESOME...just am "old" (a touch or two...maybe more than you !!!...lol) guess I'm missing something...or just haven't got up to speed on current thought process (?)...the qualifying "thing"...how that seemingly has become...well...litterally as important as the actual race results (?)...my faded memory suggests that only a few times...whether National Event level or points series stuff...do the...top 5 qualifiers or so...actually prevail/win...again willing to accept a spanking...if...I'm out of bounds here...as Ricky Ricardo used to say "splain to me Lucy"...lol...believe me...I sincerely have lots & lots of regard for you & Mark (and others)...who have done/accomplished so much...with so little...me...accomplished...not too much...with a lot !!! lol...BUT...I have ownership (55+ years of it) of more than my fair share of the 8 million "stories" (not all fit for public consumption) in the Naked City...and...that's the whole truth...nothing...but the truth...!!!...would you be kind enough to just "tune me up" a bit (bring me into modern ages)...about this whole qualifying deal ???...maybe just time to put away shoe polish for the windows...:):):) thanx Billy...always wishing you continued good health...success...imagine that !!! Drake

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

A class trophy at Indy is an important thing to a lot of people including me.
Just asking for a level playing field.
Pete

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):)Hey Pete...for sure I am on-board with the "importance" of winning class/trophy @ National event...I am...one lucky guy...in this life...so imagine...been there...done that...more than once (told ya' am LUCKY)...lol...presently trying to accomplish same for our twin boys...far-far fewer class events...so in this imperfect world...just yet another hurdle...a tall one too...the level playing field you speak of...is "dreamworld" mentality...it's never been "level" per se'...at least in my "few" years of involvement in sport of drag racing (1958 forward)...most of my years...were beyond the stock/super stock "realm" (category)...silly me thought great place to start with our boys...whoa' Wilbur...have found any success...doesn't happen ez...at all...!!!...the week to week competition/circuits...are tough...really tough...let alone Divisional/National event stuff...amazing...so for me...I'm here to tell you...I'm not counting on someone (NHRA-IHRA) making/creating a level playing field for me...purr-fection...surely would be welcome...kind of akin to Catherine Zeta Jones...knocking on my door to "socialize" this evening...lol...U get the idea !!! :):):) Drake p.s. as you say...most of us on this "site" not exactly doing this as a business...it's whatever enjoyment we embrace from our participation..nothing more...nothing less...!!!

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

How about the 1986 C-10 and its HP rating history? Why nobody crying about that one?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

We have, ancient history. Three were built(that I can recall) and all three were really fast and got the HP factor hit by the AHFS(as it should be). But it was a one body style combo not dozens of different combos spread out over 10 years differentiated by one digit in a casting number or a tenth of a point in compression or .010 valve lift.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Just to set the record straight if you are refering the the 2 barrel Ford 302 Billy, over the years there was considerable differances, flat top pistons with bigger combustion chambers on the 78 & newer 302s, dished pistons with smaller chamber heads on earlier engines, different deck heights,14 vs 18 mm spark plugs, stud mount cast iron rockers on 77 and earlier, stamped rockers with "bolt down" pedestal rockers 78 onward, small carb boosters on earlier engines vs large clunky annular boosters on later engines, differences in number of crankshaft counterweights and external balancing (28 vs 50 OZ imbalance .muliple different intake manifolds, , with or without EGR provisions etc. Not "all the same" stuff by any means.I am NOT saying the 2 barrel 302 is not rated soft, I just have to wonder if there would be so much uproar if somebody dug thru the GM classification guide and found some obscure combo with a low HP rating or factor, or if that racer would have "just done his detective work and was a smart cookie for using the guide to his advantage." Maybe the whole thing is a diversion to draw attention away from all the factory built and available new "Big 3" factory race cars, you know, like the Powerglide and Ford 9" equipped Camaro, Challenger and Mustangs that bear little resembalance to the actual street cars they supposedly represent, in equipment, weight, or HP ratings.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

:):):) Hey Rory...my fellow Ford guy...have loved you from afar...for many years...lol..."the" Rory knows his stuff...!!!...hope all well for you...in ALL ways possible...!!! Drake

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Sooooo you're saying that you wouldn't have a problem with telling NHRA that they should split the 302s at 1977/78 and just consider them 2 different combos instead of dozens?
I like the "diversion" angle. Conspiracy theory huh?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

So, I'll just throw this out there...
Participation from 2bbl fords was non existent (might as well say) couple 351c 2bbl and a couple 302 2bbl's, but really, non existent.
Someone put the hp back to factory to encourage participation and damn, did it work. Now there are a "hand full" of 302's running (some new, some not) and the AHFS is slowly correcting them as it was supposed to.

Not correcting fast enough you say? Well, what happened when you got hit with any other vehicle? You add weight or swap years/body/etc. What is different other than it's a FFFFord as some call it? I've seen guys cut taillight panels out of dusters because the different lights for different years, was that not done because of a favourable rating??
The 86 chev truck was mentioned and while there was some complaining, it was no where near what the fords have caused. They got hit and weight added, don't tell me that if a different year with a low rating was available you wouldn't of seen grills or front end swaps going on.

So because fords are available for so many years and so many combo's, that justifies the outrage? Well that's like the argument that aluminum heads (and a lot else) is available for sbc but less for everyone else and chev guys continually say "not my fault they're more popular" How about the fact that ford heads in general have terrible flowing exh ports, and others say "not my fault they don't flow like chev's"

I can have sympathy the guy who has run a certain combo and cannot change classes (Ron and Jack) and is getting the ****ty end of the stick on this one. I agree, it sucks. But it doesn't suck any worse than having a one year car (83mustang GT) that has ****ty heads/low lift flat tappet cam and is rated at 200hp when an 85 with a different nose gets a roller cam with more lift and much better heads..at 205hp. Swap noses you say, sure, if you want to run an 85. Point is, nhra has many issues, at least these fords (like so many others) will eventually get hp. If nothing else, somebody will have to keep swapping bodies/heads/intake/etc as they get hit.

Personally I'd love to see the oddball combo's (307, 304, 318, 283,289,273,290,318poly,348,352,361) but if they were all lowered, you couldn't just yell about the 289's and 352's because they were fffords.

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

I'm going to guess that your post is directed at me. There's no yelling going on here about the people who are racing this combo. The title of this thread is "just a jealous cheap shot". I have met and spoken to the top 3 qualifiers from Indy over the last few years and I would hope that they know that I was more making light that bi*ching about the subject. There IS a problem with the way that they get factored too but both of these issues are the fault of NHRAs "uneven" handling of these situations. Just as an example, I'll use my 307 because it's the closest thing that I have to the 302. Not because I'm bi*ching but because it fits a factual situation.
Someone asks Pat C. for HP back on the 2V 302s. With good reason, they needed it. He (apparently on his own) gives all of the "net HP" factored 302s back their original "net" HP ratings and he probably should have. To my knowledge, no one has ever gotten one "hit" with HP before the time that they were arbitrarily refactored. The problem with him doing that is that he set a precedence that they/he won't now adhere to. The 307 fits the same scenario,never hit, just assigned a new factor. BUT, when I requested HP back on the 307, suddenly the situation has changed. It gets back 3 HP. OBTW, it's "net HP" factor is 130. I think that "liberals" call that discrimination.
Almost every 350/2V Chevy is different from year to year from flat to dished pistons, different size carbs, different head and intake numbers and yet they are considered the same by NHRA. Why is that?
Trust me, I truly am in favor of the 302 FFFords getting their HP rolled back. I hope that 100 get built. I AM NOT in favor of the way NHRA creates rules and and sets a precedence and doesn't follow them.
Can we talk about LD340s now?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

GB2, I came back to respond to your post and now I see Billy already has.
Once again, it's not A FORD issue..It's a fairness issue.
All 302, 307, 305 , 304, 318 , 350 2 bbls ..or none!
Why should other makes have to fight for 2-3-4 HP reductions, when the 302 , 2bbls got a blanket reduction to net factory HP, across all model lines and about 10 year's worth? Okay, got it now?

Re: Just a jealous "cheap shot"
 

Billy, Just build a 2bbl 302 FFFord.