Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Congrats to Mr Jim Hale at Indy.
After seeing this, I got to thinking.
Just for fun.
Pick your favorite 60's over- rated factory slug combo, and take off 76 hp.
Would you build one now?

How about a 66 GTO, 360 horse Tri-Power? Let's see. That brings it down to 286 and about J/SA.
Decent cam, lots of CFM, 12 to 1 comp,. 3 speed trans now.
Where do I sign up?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Mark -
Rather than a fixed amount of reduction, let's look at the percentage reduction that was allowed. 76/365 = .2082 or roughly a 20% reduction over the original factory rating. Interesting that several years ago a contingency of racing analysts suggested a 20% reduction for many of the 1960s engine combinations considering the net hp ratings of the 70s and the advantageous ratings applied by the factories for their new, profile offerings. I could easily support that 20% as a guideline for some wholesale revaluing of many engine combinations. For example, would a '63 Galaxie 390 rated at 240 (OEM 300 x 80%) be competitive? Probably so. Since the cost and difficulty of finding and building a now classic body would be prohibitive to many, I doubt that it would be a major upset. I thought the 302 Ford and 350 Chevy truck changes would have created more of an event, but it seems that whatever fears everyone voiced have quickly diminished. What little participation has been and will be nullified by the AHFS as soon as the competitors want to show how advantageous their little prize can be. Isn't that the appeal of such combinations - being able to qualify well? Egos will be a powerful force to erase the advantage.

Anything that will increase the probability of more competitors should be considered seriously. Make it easier, cheaper and more fun since it certainly has lost the appeal of being financially rewarding. When a tournament bass fisherman can win $50K in a minor contest with less investment than a competitive Stock eliminator car, the indicators are there that some serious revamping is in order to keep this game going.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Well thanks for "fielding" that one Dwight!
After reading Marks post, believe it or not, I just didn't know what to say.
BTW, I think that the GTO at around 300-310 would be cool!

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

C'mon Billy ..Think high class for a minute.
How about a 65 Biscayne, 409/340 .minus .208 % then...71 hp?
269 ought to put in about L/SA .
Huge 4GC, metric 3 speed. 11+ to 1 comp. Any good ?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

How about a '64 tri-power GTO @ 278hp? Or a tri-power '61 Chevy 348/280 @ 224hp? There are lots of cool combinations that would become competitive. Many 2-bbl combinations would suddenly be not-so-easily-overlooked.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Ya mean like a 2-bbl 307 Chebby?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Nah, they were built after the 60s. Besides, nobody in their right mind would even attempt one of those.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Personally, I would like to see NHRA grant all the post-1970 2-bbl combinations a reprieve at OEM ratings like they did the 302 Fords. How would you like to race at 130, Billy?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Heck, if I could get my 230/140 6 cyl down to 130 I'd be one very happy fella!

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

69 Camaros/novas had 'em...

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

FWIW, a neighbor had a 68 Chevelle (Malibu?) with one.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

The thought of something like this coming to fruition has got me thinking back to when I was really young and stupid (not yesterday, I said really young) when I thought it would be cool to build a 67 Camaro with a 210/327 and a 4 speed. It ran L/S and was the biggest pooch I ever built! But take Dwights 20% figure and that 210 becomes 168! That would make it one really fun, light Q/S car!

Mark, as far as the "Think high class" stuff, that's about as high as I think.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

68-70 307s are rated at 195HP. If we take your 20% that becomes 164. That's right in the neighborhood of my 72 307s 171! Seeing as all 307s (68-73) are basically the same (except 73), I'll take it!
My 307 is a fun car but it's no hitter, not even at 164 HP. But it is reasonably inexpensive and easy to duplicate (and fun, did I say fun?).
Dwight, I think you're on to something here and would love to see it happen!

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Sounds like a plan to me.

Any factory rated or higher combo that's in the guide, that hasn't been raced in 30 years, take 20 % off the rating.
Any de-rated combo that isn't down 20 %,and hasn't run .6 under, adjust to that percentage.
Only exception would be cars that already are record holders (302 ,2 bbl, stick).
Now, all we need is to talk Chuck Norton into writing a letter to NHRA, and then we'll get the petition signed.
Serious proposal..Who's in?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I would much rather see this!

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I also think that this idea should be put on the main Stock-SS forum.
Dwight, this was initially your idea. Would you please start the thread? If not, then I will but you should have the honor.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I will work on it and post it next week after the hoopla of Indy dies down. Besides, I'm playing with grand kids this weekend.

You guys have some good ideas so I will run it by you before I post it.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

New (old) guy posting here, used to bracket race AMC's for a long time with good success, so I kinda know the game. And I'm used to being the underdog!
Reading this thread with fascination--I'm in the infancy stages of trying to figure out a cheap AMC Stocker combo to run T or Q, maybe even U, and this thread's idea could have monumental impact on what I'd want to build. Got a half-acre of '60's and '70s 6 cylinders and 304 cars out back...
Brian Saunders central IL

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Just for the heck of it, I looked up a 1970 Dart, 318/230.
Take away 46 hp (20%) and that gives you 184.
It's at 185 now.
20 % sounds like a good number to use.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I think this is an excellent idea. Looking forward to seeing
The response on the other thread. Seems like definitely could result in some new builds. Could bring some new life to so many of those old combos that got beat to death years ago.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I think it's about time to bring this one to the top again.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

'68 Pontiac Firebird Sprint 250 OHC 6 cyl. Currently @ 215, less 20% gets you to 172 hp.

Big camshaft, nice intake, good exhaust situation, belt driven camshaft, Quadrajet carb...lots to like.

Currently it's a 14 lbs car @ 3080 lbs. (incl. driver) so that's not going to work. But at 172 hp and 3080 (incl driver), it's a Q/S deal that could go R/S (stick and auto).

Would likely give those 318 2 bbl Darts and Barracudas fits.....;)

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

i think that it's about time to get after NHRA about this again.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Sorry ..They've been busy superceding 40 yo obsolete intakes.

(Couldn't resist..Merry Christmas)

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Lot of us Mopar guys are holding out for metric 200's, e shift of course.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Maybe it's time that NHRA started superseding the tech dept. with people with common sense and a working knowledge of car combos.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

1963 Thunderbird 390 @ 340 hp less 20% = 272hp. Two things I like a bout the car, VERY COOL, and most important is when the hood is open all you see is carburetors.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Suppose you'd have to tether the fender skirts?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I'm sure Mr Paul could put you a couple of solenoids in a 727 if you can't get the 200 approved!

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Mr. Paul makes an E-Shift for a 904 and 727.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

How about ANY 1962 and earlier Ford. None of them have lost any Hp ever!

Also 1959 and earlier don't exist, just ask nhra.

I was considering a 1957 300hp supercharged car until I found out they can't find any paperwork on Fords!

Ron.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Here's one that illustrates my point here.
1965 Cutlass. 330 /315 hp!!
Take 20% off like some of the slug combo's get (apologies to my Mopar friends)
Makes it what 252-253? Might be a decent combo with a 3 speed in J-K/SA.
Right now , it runs D/SA !
Don't like hp reductions? Fine, then nobody gets them. Nobody, ...even those guys who have lunch with NHRA brass.

Another thing with this combo. They don't have all the specs. Deck, carb size, etc., even on the 442's . Why the hell not? Those cars were raced brand new. See Pete Kost, Woodland /Andresen.
You guys think Farmer would let them show up at The Winters, with no carb specs?

So, for the few guys that read this drivel, ..if you think fair is fair, everybody gets 20 % or nobody, call NHRA. Ask them what happened to our proposal. Ask why certain combos get gobs of hp off, until they're no. 1 , and others have to fight for every 2-3 hp.
It's your association. At least it used to be.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

Mark, now that you're a left coaster, can you tell me how I get invited to lunch with the NHRA Brass? I had a nice little chat with Mr. Clifford a couple of years ago at Pomona but he didn't seem to have a clue as to what I was talking about. Maybe if I had shaved and worn a clean shirt?

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I have the old engine specs for the 57 Blown Fords. Its an IHRA tech sheet but it was copied from an NHRA tech sheet back around 1970.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

X-Techman,
Would you e-mail them to me?


Thanks,

Ron.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

I tried sending you an email several times and it would not go thru. Send me your mailing address to zorascar1966@gmail.com and I will mail you a copy.
Terry Bell
aka X-Tech Man on class racer.

Re: Minus 76 Horsepower
 

amxron.....I still have not heard from you. I have the 57 Blown Ford specs ready to send you if you send me your mailing address. If you want the others you requested I just sent my old engine tech book (all of it) out to Dwight Southerland yesterday. He should get it Thursday and some of the older Fords are in there. Check with him but give him time to get it all sorted out and listed on his tech site.
X-Tech Man