Deconstructing Stock
 

I was having this discussion with another forum member the other day. He was telling me about a couple, well in their 60's and now retired, that are wanting to dabble in Stock Eliminator after being away for over 30 years!

Lately, with the advent of the factory ringers (for this discussion, let's call them Supercars), we are seeing some new faces and some returning faces, but not necessarily many young faces.

We see a bunch of second gen. racers and kids rising up from the Jr.'s, but those efforts are mostly parent backed and sponsored , at least in the beginning..

So ,what will it take to attract the average ,young gearhead to NHRA style racing?
Stock, in it's current form is just too cost prohibitive for the youth to jump into.
I won't even mention entry fees, membership fees, permanent number fees,$12 gas, and so on, in this discussion, but they are part of the equation too.

Bring back Pure Stock?

Sealed crate motors ?

Split off Junior Stock again?

Index classes..(not overly successful in Div 2)

As my buddy from The Bay Area would say ... Come on NHRA, what's the plan? Do they even have one? Are they making it up as they go along?


Thoughts please...and let's keep it reasonable. We may be the ones who save our sport that we helped build.

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1 word. Imports

Sorry, I know........

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When we started racing stock back in the 60's, the idea was to find a "combination" that would work and be competitive without breaking the bank. I think that can still apply, there are lots of competitive combinations ot there that can be put together for less than the cost of the average junior dragster.

Jim Mantle U/V/SA 6632

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Well Mark, I know you didn't want to mention the big four, but reducing them would be a big start (let's say 2/3's of it)! Those younger racers mainly drive imports, and they have their own series (that I was able to win the bracket portion of this past January in Tucson...it's called "Import Face-Off"), that allowed domestic fwd's like mine to race against front & rwd imports. I believe my entry fee was $25 bucks, and I won $150! Granted that pales big time to what NHRA pays, but there was no membership dues to pay, no competition number to pay, and definitely no $305 dollar entry fees (even for their fastest class...which had cars in it that would've given the dp's and the cj's a run for their money)!!! Furthermore, many of those cars were able to run pump gas, and even the price of premium unleaded was just over 1/3 the cost of VP race fuel (and it's gone down a lot lately...when is VP, Sunoco, and the others going to drop their prices on our race fuels?)!

NHRA shot theirselves in the foot also by lowering our indexes, and changing the altitude correction factors from the former Stock/Super Stock standards, to what the .90 classes use!

Btw, the "Import Face Off" challenge is much like "Super Chevy Show", and other racing series like that. They had quite a good turnout for that event, and although there were more show cars than race cars this year, they had a good turnout, and the event was a success for them. I think that NHRA could help theirselves grandly by lowering their fees for all of their races to mid-90's level prices, and re-instate the performance standards from then as well. The other ideas you mentioned could help too, but I think these ideas of mine will help more....AND FASTER!!!

That's my .02

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Mark, you are correct in your statement that the overall costs to compete in Stock for a "newbe" racer are prohibitive.

Step one in trying to get younger gearheads involved in NHRA style racing should be to develop a good nationally based street legal program starting at the NHRA member track level. If you think back to how many of us first got involved in the sport back in the early days, it was with the cars we drove to school and work in. Just think about the hundreds of thousands of older model (70's, 80s ) Camaros and Mustangs in the hands of young kids cruzing the streets today. This sport is based on passion and in order for anyone to want to build a Stock category race car (or any class car for that matter) requires passion for the sport as well as dedication. The best way to create such desire is to make it as easy as possible for young racers to first be exposed to the sport.

A nationally organized street legal program with rules close to "pure stock" as you indicated, would be a good first step to give young potential racers a chance to see what the sport is all about

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Thanks,Gary...I agree on the fees, but I'm looking for ideas on restructuring the class, or building off it .
If there was an affordable place for the newcomers to go, with a different pay structure, maybe NHRA would see the light....I know...fat chance.

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I am almost afraid to say this but in the early 60s we did almost all of our racing on the streets in Indianapolis - to be old enough to remember that you would be 18 (in 64) + 48 you would now be 66

Racing has become more civilized

We earn more and can afford more for our hobbies and toys and our forms of entertainment - technology is a fact not a mirage

I do not think trying to time warp us back to 1965 is realistic - those are historic by gone days

I prefer to be where my kids have gone with progress and growth - nothing stands still

I know I will be attacked for saying this but I also am entitled to my opinion

Ron

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Most of what has been stated above is my reasoning for seriously considering moving away from Stock Eliminator and the NHRA all together. Unless something changes, I will be going either Heads Up racing, or just doing "True Street" style events and Hot Rod's Drag Week.

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[QUOTE=Len Imbrogno;333115]

Just think about the hundreds of thousands of older model (70's, 80s ) Camaros and Mustangs in the hands of young kids cruzing the streets today.

I haven't really seen too much of this and I believe that is actually part of the problem. Lack of availability of cheap older muscle cars after those TV car auction shows making people believe they have a gold mine sitting in the back 40 hasn't helped.

I see more young people trying to race at unsanctioned tracks than anywhere else. Low entry fee, decent payback, more liberal tech inspections if at all. I'm not saying I agree with this method of operation but it does draw new racers.

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That is it right there! Spark something within them by just having the opportunity there. Promote it. The heart of our sport is passion for cars and acceleration. The competitiveness comes later. The younger group has to gather a taste for it before they ever decide to build a class specific car. I think that's where it needs to begin and build off of that. Without passion for the sport no one would be doing this stuff. It's usually a very poor investment on money. The passion and genuine love for the sport has to be there for people to continue racing. The competitvness is what forms classes or else we all would just be going to test and tune sessions for a hobby. The classes come later has the people become more and more involved with drag racing.

BTW I'm not young at 29 years old. The CJs is what got me to even pay attention to the other NHRA classes below the Pro classes. Even though I knew of the classes somewhat thanks to Evan Smiths' articles on "Project Stocker" in MM&FF. I was more into the NMRA Heads up cars. I do not have a sponsor yet nor do I come from money. Just good ole hard work and lots of overtime.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again.
We're not a car culture anymore.There's too many diversions for kids today.They're more interested in electronis/computors/games.A lot of them have no desire to get dirty anymore.Society has dictated that.
Now go ahead and beat me down to the ground like a dog.

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Sorry, Ed; no beatdown today. There is absolutely no question what you said is true but the folks on this board will (apparently) never understand. If they did, they'd realize exactly how the sport has reached its current state...and why.

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how about the cost to get to the track
fuel, truck, trailer, tools, ice,food,water,etc
it cost me 1000 every time

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There is truth to your statements. Generations are changing. They are absolutely into electronics/gaming. My 11 year old son and nephew are prime examples.

They don't want to go outside for very long and seem to have withdraws if they aren't playing a video game. They have had very little interest in drag racing. My son has asked me questions about engines in the garage off and on. He is starting to get into going to the race track with me. It's bonding time and he's getting into cars more and more now that he's around it more. My nephew who had zero interest in drag racing until uncle Daniel started building a CJ like he saw up at the US nationals. Now he's beginning to be more interested in it because racing at that level appears important and special.

My 5 year old daughter on the other hand. She is MAD if she doesn't get to go drag racing and can't watch it on TV. She loves cars. She always wants to be in the garage with me. When mom says its ok, and she is ready I'll build her a JR to go racing also. (I would my son also if he comes around to wanting to drive instead of watching/learning)

My 23 year old brother is into racing since he hung around me and my friends from 10yrs ago. I got into racing(driving at the track) from hanging out with my friends that were a few years older then I was. My dad raced in his youth(A Chevy none the less;)). However never raced after I was born so I wasn't around the sport unfortunately. My 35 year old brother is and has been into cars his whole life but never went to the drag strip till I convinced him to take his car to Test and Tune night at Indy when I was 18. He likes drag racing, but he is not a drag racer. He dislikes the political stuff of the class world and doesn't like how confusing the rules are in some classes on runs.

I see a reoccurring theme here. It took someone to get another person into the sport. To expose them to this world that many have never experienced and it started at the grass roots level most of the time. A class can not be designed to ignite the spark in new people to inspire them to build a car. That's like having the tail wag the dog instead of having the dog wag the tail. If the sport is waining in popularity, I think the proper question is what can we as racers/enthusiasts do to help our sport. IMO new classes and big revisions will not do that(maybe with very limited success with flavor of the months). Exposure and Relationships will. Perhaps I'm way off base in others eyes but that's the way it has been in my experience.

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Ed, very accurate but in some cases the costs etc of racing keeps it from being one of the available options. My understanding is cheap entry, grudge racing is the most popular nights at some local tracks. If these people were channeled into the class pool or other track races they could develop the "interest" to continue.

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The single most effective tool to get a young gearhead hooked on racing a drag car is a ride-a-long.

I remember my first ride in an open header drag car. Awesome !
The young people can't get that feel from any video game....lol


I am a fan of Pure Stock myself.
The cars can use pump gas, and street legal tires and one of those cars could possibly be driven to the track.
Yes, they allowable mods are restricted, but that should help in restaining the cost to participate.
That is the easiest entry level class for a newbie so that would be where to start. ( for NHRA)

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Things are totally different now than they were when I started hot rodding and racing. In my area there were several places that the motor heads went to hang out and do some street racing. On a friday or saturday night there would be at least 150 cars at the parking lot where we gathered. Steve Cohen and Corky Markwart were regulars there. That type of thing would not be allowed to happen in todays world.
Kids today barely know what a muscle car is or was. There are a few who have learned from their dads of friends.
Like Ed said the kids today like the electrinocs and games.
To attract the younger crowd first you have to get them to the events that run our type of classes. The entry fees have to be affordable. Then you need to have an anouncer that can actually inform them on what is happening on the track with the different classes and explain how the competition works in the different forms of racing with in our class structure.
There will be fewer and fewer new faces in our type of racing in the future due to the cost and the dedication that it takes to participate on a divisional and national event level.
We have the Southern Stock Super Stock assn down here in Florida which gives us a more cost effective and user friendly venue to race. This is where the new blood could come from if promoted properly. Some of these associations have been pretty sucessful.They just need the support of the racers.

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Great thread Mr Yacavonne, this subject is very close to my heart. I did some research and found that in the United States alone there is approximately 1,043 oval tracks with 12,000 paid members, compared to 295 drag strips with NHRA alone 35.000 licensed members and another 23.000 in IHRA. The primary reason is that vehicle can be driven from the street in a drag race and with competition that includes handicapping any vehicle, be competitive with any other. Many years ago bracket racing was introduce to help combat the high cost of Class Racing and help our sport to continue to survive. A great artlcle was penned by J.E. Renninger in Bracket Racing USA March 1996 Volume 10, number two in the Reaction Time section where he stated that Heads up mustang was attracting the young people to the track to run heads up but with all good things, competition breeds more competition to the point where they just plain tired themselves out or bankrupt their savings in the quess for more speed. I have been a harden supporter of Pure Stock but here is the catch, we must keep the bracket indexes under contol by introducing new cars to racing bracket racing style, dial your own run race . Just think of the cars that you could bring in, not just the Pony Retro Muscle Cars but new very performance oriented automobiles built right here in North America such as Toyota Corolla SR(a rocketship) Toyota Camry, Cadillacs for us older gents. I've sent this information to NHRA hoping that they might introduce it to the divisional level to see if any interest is there but unfortunately Compton and the gang of ^%$# are just too busy bleeding it until they can just walk away. So it's left to brave folks such as Mark Yacavonne and others to educate us and kick us in the butt. So why not a Pure stock run what you brung race for newer cars to help bring the young people and the older folks back to racing. I know what I'm talking because I'm building a stocker at this moment and sometimes I wonder why I'm doing this/lol Claude Ruel

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Heads up racing is what I find exciting. Bracket and throttle stop racing is boring to watch most of the time. The only reason I considered Stock/SS in the first place was the heads up class runoffs. There are other draws but that's what got me to even start considering the class.

Problem with heads up is it is EXPENSIVE!!! Classes are formed to be "affordable to the new guy". In a years time the guys that can out spend and/out smart everyone else rises to the top. Quickly the competitive nature kicks and people spend astronomical amounts of money on their race car. Heads up is exciting and simple to understand. It puts people in the seats and makes them want to build a car. I could build a faster heads up car for the same amount of money I'm spending on the CJ. I want to race in the NHRA though for several reasons and at least I will get a little heads up action with stock/SS

Bracket racing is hard to be good at. It's cheaper to run and most people that want to race start there because of costs. You can out drive someone better then some can outspend the competition. But for most new guys to the sport don't get excited about watching bracket.

"Run what you brung and hope you brung enough" is what gets the blood flowing. The only issue is the cost of that type of racing virtually insures the class will not survive long with out big money, big sponsors, big venues and big dedication.

As stated above the car culture has changed. Fridays and Saturdays the city streets where packed with youth driving around and socializing about and around their cars. City officials and older citizens worked feverishly hard to end that. Curfews, citations for loitering and road blocks so you couldn't "scoop the loop" was standard practice in my town until the ritual was dead. Known Racing spots were closely monitored for street racers(not that I would condone such a thing).

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I don't post here much at all, and I do not have a class car (I will someday...as long as the classes still exist). That said, I do bracket race pretty seriously. I am also a high school teacher and only 26 years old, so I would like to think I have a pretty close connection to todays youth. There are absolutely still kids/young people interested in cars, and there are still places where they congregate and hang out just like they did 20-40 years ago. Here is the problem, if they are not backed by their parents funding or somehow independently wealthy, they do what they can on very low budgets. Budgets so low that sometimes it doesn't even allow an extra $25 dollars to go to test and tune and run their cars. I believe it really comes down to money. They work hard at their part time jobs during school and their summer jobs but still it is very difficult to make enough to get ahead when it comes to hobbies like cars and racing. Even when they get out of high school and college, entry level jobs often times don't allow the time or money to get into these hobbies, and next thing you know by the time they can afford it they are 40 or so and have many other "irons in the fire".

I am a huge advocate for the sport in general, be it import racing, class racing, bracket racing, heck even heads up racing. It is just so hard to get new blood. I was talking to some racers at the track the other day, I think tracks need to institute entry level classes that CANNOT be taken over by experienced racers and all out race cars.

Beaver Springs instituted a class this season called True Street, I think this class would possibly be appealing to young people. The cars must be 100% street legal and cannot have the DOT "slicks". This would allow them to race their daily driver or hot street car and not be immediately killed by a .020 package in a weekly bracket class. I know for a fact that young people get intimidated very quickly when you DO actually get them to attend the race track, they see slicks, fire suits, parachutes, 150 mph cars, the list goes on. They see this and say..."I'm out" before even giving it a chance.

I typed this quickly hopefully my thoughts weren't scattered.

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Hey Len! Good to see you're still out there.

Good post, Romeo. Beaver Springs also has a large street-legal bracket racing program on Friday nights. If we don't get people involved in bracket racing, you're less likely to get them involved in the higher level of class racing.

I wrote about growing the entry level of our sport in an article entitled The Farm System, back in 2006.
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_02/farm_system.html

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Speaking of getting youth involved, I take my car to local schools a couple times a year. It's fun to see them ask questions and get excited to hear it fire up. I encourage everyone with a race car to do this.

Part of the problem these days is parents... stop buying them video games and cell phones and get them some hot wheels and a sand box!

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What age group is being seen as youth involvement and what level of involvement is wanting to be achieved?

What got all us involved in drag racing and eventually class racing? How did we start out finiacially? What was our obsticals? What was the best experience/greatest moment?

Some good points have been brought up. Younger crowd can feel intimidated and worse yet unwelcomed by the older generation when they step foot on the property.

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I guess you guys don't count the sons and daughters of existing OLD racers new blood. They start out with a 21st century perspective because the parents earned them a better starting point and taught them how to race

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How can you get into NHRA racing if there are no tracks around with the NHRA flag flying? Down in south Florida, there is only one NHRA track and it's Orlando, which is in the rumor mill of closing next season. So we have 5 local tracks, all IHRA, none of them run S/SS eliminators. Two exceptions, Immoc and Bradenton when they have an IHRA points races.
Other then that the next closest track that has the NHRA flag is SGMP. It's only 430 miles away, so how can S/SS survive with no support from NHRA it's self trying to get more tracks under its flag.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock!

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At 40, I know I don't quite qualify as a "young guy", but I am definitely a newbie...after 10 long years of dreaming, I hope to dump the clutch in my stocker for the first time by the end of summer. This will be my first racecar ever. That being said, here's my perspective: All my friends are what you'd call gearheads...they own everything from street rods to modern musclecars. Some are bracket racers, some have dabbled in Friday night grudge racing at the local track, and some have never been down a dragstrip. What they all have in common is this: for the most part, none of them even knew what Stock was until I started building this car. I myself had no clue until I saw Dave Cech's Chevy II at a Friday night grudge race at Scribner back in 2000. I don't think it's realistic to think you can attract new blood from the general public. They will come from the local bracket racing demographic, in my opinion. This is where Mr. Beard's "Farm System" approach is very smart. If we classracers can regularly hold combos at local tracks, the performance-oriented subset of bracket racers can be "recruited" there. Stock is NOT an entry-level class anymore...entry-level racers shy away from the concept of their car fitting into a class - it's just too complicated for someone who's getting their feet wet; that being said, I don't want to see Stock watered down to cater to those folks. That's what the attraction is for me: How the heck can a 283 with the tiny stock carb run freakin' 11's???? They are very special cars, and the learning curve makes it great!

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I can see myself showing up at my local s/ss event in a c4.ac on stereo blasting and not to mention 25 mpg.having fun and being competitive.pure stk. sounds good ihra has it right.

joe mocci
m/sa

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I guess they closed Gainesville and I didn't know it. lol. It is a lot closer to you than sgmp, but I do understand about not being close to you
Chuck

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Of course we do Ron...duly mentioned in my first post... But will that be enough to sustain Class Racing for the ages?

I remember when Frank Policky and Ed Merkle won National meets in their 50's, 30 years ago. We were aghast .We couldn't imagine still racing at that age.
Take a look around at the next divisional We are all getting old! Our segment of the sport is getting old.

The question is, what are we gonna do about it?
I don't see NHRA doing anything pro-active. They wait for trends like the Import Racing, and then try to glom onto them.. They see what's popular in the other associations and then co-opt them.

How about THEM opening the wallet and buying a used Stocker? Create a season long raffle where the winners of a Street Bracket race in the Summit series, get a free ticket? Pay someone to tow it around the country. Get it promoted in Hot Rod , Drag Racing mag, Speed Channel ,etc.
In other words >>DO SOMETHING, NHRA!

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Here's an under handed idea! Tell the younger people it's entry level and uses all stock parts! They can take any car and run the numbers! Then once they get involved by the time they realize that there is nothing stock about a "stock" car it will be too late Muahahaha.

Even the factory "super cars" can't run the numbers that are required to be a front runner low qualifier without major capital invested on top of buying the car.

Some people make it look easy and simple. Lol Not a Chance!

It really takes people to get other people involved in the sport. The governing body can help but ultimately the most influential person is the guy you shave with in the mirror in the morning. Take your kids, take your kids friends, take you friends kids, take your co-workers. Out of one become many and it's the law of exponential growth.

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When I was a kid, I heard that there were no kids getting into the sport. I guess we're not "kids" enough anymore, but just at Atlanta there was me, Craig Marshall, Emily Volkman, Drew Allen, Jake Sealey, Brandyn Phillips, Kaitlyn Atkinson, Jimmy Hidalgo Jr, and probably others I missed... Candies? Some young guns in the Index classes too.

Just because every high school or college kid isn't running S/SS classes right this second doesn't mean that there isn't new blood coming into the sport. Look around you. Would we like to see even more? Certainly, and we should work to help newbies along, but there's not as much of a drought as we tend to think, either.

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OK...I'm totally shooting' from the hip here and haven't put more than 5 seconds into this thought. :confused:

What if Stock (not Super Stock) no longer had a minimum index? Maybe on the slower half of the field, maybe the entire field. Still a dial-in format and still a heads-up format where applicable. Still the NHRA blueprint application. Still the same rules. That way a guy that buys a 1987 Camaro or Mustang could actually race it with minimal cash outlay. He can go rounds and be happy. He will no doubt loose on a heads-up run. But at least he can play the game a little and hopefully is encouraged to spend some money to make the car competitive.

Personally, I had always dreamed of having a Stocker and the dream was always dead once I realized how much it took to make a car run under the index, even a marginal amount. But then I bought a daily driver '87 Shelby Daytona Z that was .400 under with spinning street tires. Sure it was a soft index but it was the car that got me in the game. I then set a record and was hooked. I built an engine and set another record along with many #1 qualifier's. I never would have got serious about this had I not had a door that was easy to walk into.

The only problem I see is AHFS. I think that can be resolved with assigning an ET that trips the trigger instead of tripping the trigger off of a baseline index. Let's say today we have a index of 12.50 and the AHFS trigger is 1.00 under. Just make the AHFS trigger an ET or 11.50.

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You want more people in stock ?
Crate motor Cars !
$12,000.00 to $15,000.00 stocker motors keep alot of people out !
Crate motors run $2800.00 to around $ 7,000.00.....
Points races should be a one or two day event,,
Record runs on Friday if you want to try to set a record, race on Saturday, keep it short and sweet..
That way a guy could leave Friday after work and head back home on Sunday...

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Most Guys who are building crate motor cars, are doing it for ease of aquiring parts and to save money. And that is a good concept. Do you think that if Crate cars make it into NHRA, guys won't put money into them and make them real fast? Then the cheap bracket bomber that guys intend those cars to be will change quickly into uncompetive cars, or heads up fodder for the fast up to date cars that would breed quickly. Especially in places like the Northeast, or division 7 where the income of the racer is higher than the guys racing in the southeast .

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You're right, it's the old age setting in. The NHRA wouldn't let me race at the Gators because of a grade point issue, so I guess in the back of my mind, it's closed. But it's 330 miles from home.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock!

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I like the idea of 1 to 2 day points races. 2 races in a weekend as well

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Hi guys. I am 16 years old and stock eliminator is my favorite racing. My dad didn't get me into stock i just really started to like it since the first time I went to the US nationals in 2007. ever since i have been hooked to stock. I am trying to build a 1999 trans am to run stock eliminator. To make my money for my project I buy wrecked cars and fix them and sell them. I hope to be racing in 2 years or so

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Welcome! Be aware that this is a disease that you will never be able to cure. The gratification you get from improvements on your car's performance, personal driving performance, and round wins are only eclipsed by the friends you will make.

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Ken, Only if they are factory sealed.

BTW, nobody said you have to have a 10 second Stocker.

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Like a class called "coyote stock" in the NMRA. Heads up, sealed 5.0 engine and computer. Rule guide for chassis.

That class was also designed to try to keep cost down and get guys with chassis back in the game. Admittedly I liked the concept. Although the engine building is the fun part. The first couple races had 2 cars show up. I haven't followed it closely though.