Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
or what combos can be built to run under the index and still afford food!
Billy Nees here, Dwight Southerland and I are going to share a few combos that we feel could be built for $5000 or less (or more) if you already have a body. I'm sure that there are other combos and personal favorites so feel free to share. Please feel free to critique our choices but let us try not to argue as Dwight and I have better things that we could be doing. I'll go first so that I can toss out a "no brainer" (sorry for the blind side Dwight). 1982 Mustang with 2V 302/157/162. I think at 162 factor any 2V 302 could go under the index but this one was overlooked by NHRA when they defactored the 2V 302 combos. Big 2150 2V Marine cam w/ .419/.443 lift Aluminium intake The 82 bodys all break in the mid 16s so they're all O/P/Q cars. Hardest part to find will be the intake as it's specific to the car and were pretty much the first thing taken off and replaced with a 4V intake. C4s are easy to come by and on our budget could be used with a fresh rebuild and a shift kit (and added to later as funds become available). Stock 7.5 rear will work just fine with C4. Find junkyard Aerostar posi unit and check out 4X4 mags for gearsets (they are available). Spend good money for good converter. I'd guess something that will flash to about 4300 to start. (could be the most expensive part you buy). Scrounge for wheels but get good tires (I'm thinking 9X28 slicks on 8" wheels). Cast piston short block is all thats needed as the motor will be making all of its power below 63-6500 rpm.Have the machine shop give the piston an extra thousandth of skirt clearance. Have the stock rods medium blasted and replace rod bolts. Mix and match the rods and pistons to get your best "balance" and "deck heights" (we can't afford a real "blueprint" job here, we can do that when we hit the Lotto). If crank needs to be cut then have it offset .013. Have the block honed with a plate even though it'll cost you (ring seal is important). If it's in the budget, get the block decked (make compression, it makes torque). I like nice, soft bearings (good old michigan 77s) and cheap,cast iron "rebuilders" rings (I like enginetech). Get good valves and good valvejob.Don't get carried away with valvespring pressures (140 on seat will do). Get heads milled for correct chamber volumes (remember, compression!). Don't get carried away with the cam! This motor won't spin anyway. Max valve lifts won't be that critical on a motor like this one. Find a cam with something in the neighborhood of 236 to 240 for duration @ .050 The only thing I would do to the suspension would be get the latemodel quad shock setup from a junkyard. There! I built the car for you! I believe that anyone with some mechanical and tuning ability should easily be able to run under the P or Q index with this combo and although I didn't price it out, a good scrounge could get it done for under $5000 with some change for coffee! Dwight, it would make a real fun stick car too with an 8.8 or 9" under it! |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
Billy my long lost good friend.
Just a few hick ups in your proposed 82 Mustang dime rocket combo. 1) Only available as a stick from the factory. If NHRA accepts it as a automatic God bless. 2) Aerostars came with 8.8 rear ends. Look for 4x4 Ranger with 4 cylinder for 4.10 or even 4.30 gears with a posi 7.5. It's funny how NHRA whacked the almost all the 302's when new (our 86 especially with a 15 bump before it ever turned a tire) yet they let that misrable BS Caddy get away with a rediculous 170 HP rating n S/SS and continues to do so. (No offense to my friend Bob Shaw) This is why I feel zero remorse for anyone who has to race with a CJ or DP. :rolleyes: By the way Billy, I have the ultimate FoMoCo "dime rocket" stocker combo. ;) |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
How about a pacer wagon with a 258? Somebody needs to get that combo whacked! Sorry Jim.
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85 Lincoln Mark VII LSC for U/SA.
302 TBI Comes with a 8.8 and a posi. Almost all Mustang parts will fit. If I had the extra $4-5 grand and time we would build one in a second. We probably have enough spare parts to get one under the index without touching the motor. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
As mentioned by Alex, the 82 Mustang GT was stick only, as were all the 4 barrel carbed 83-85 5.0 Mustangs. (There were automatic 5.0 Mustangs and Capris available, at least in 84-85, but they used a throttle body injection, rather than carb.)Also, rather than fool around with the 7.5 rearend, the 8.8 is cheap & readily available, as they came in every 1986-93 5.0 Mustang. I regularily see Mustang 8.8s for sale in the $50.-100. price range, and the vast majority have Traction Lok, although a spool is preferable.
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Upon further review, it probably would be less expensive in the long run to go with the 8.8 and be done with it. It still would fit in the budget. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
Okay, since I have already let the cat out of the bag on the other thread, I will start with my favorite, the '76 or '77 Camaro, '78 Camaro LT or '78 Firebird Formula, or '79 Camaro Berlinetta with a 305 2-bbl for U/SA. The pluses for this combination and the potential makes it a must look at in my opinion.
The engine is basically the same as the one Billy Lynn and Dean Oliver race in their Malibus in K & L. The only difference is the carb and a smaller intake valve (which may be a plus with the smaller carb!). Those Malibus run 11.80s consistently at 3250 lbs, so we can get a guage on the potential of the U combination from that. If you allow that the switch to a 2-bbl will chop a full second off and the added weight for U (3770 lbs. minimum) will slow by another .6 or so, the U combination should run mid 13s in a class with a 15.15 index. I see lots of potential there to be a competitor. Then, consider that the 200 Metric or 200R4 is available and the car will be equipped with a GM 8.5" ten bolt. The 200 is a transmission of choice in lots of classes and the 8.5 is plenty strong enough with stock parts for this combo. The body has leaf springs so traction is easy and the plethora of available bolt-ons makes used parts easy to find. There have been several racers over the years chase combinations using the Rochester 2-bbl, so even the carb is not exactly an unknown. I see lots of affordable potential in these combinations. I think the big problem for most people would be resisting the temptation to go overboard with the cosmetics and tricks that are available and applicable for the engine and car. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
Dwight, I'd like to add that the combo in a 78 Malibu or MonteCarlo or even Grand Prix can run anywhere from P to T and although it would cost more to put in an 8.5 rear it would still make a nice combo. Also, these bodies could also be "updated" with the 4V rather easily at a later date.
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Thanks for this thread ,guys. This will be fun.
I didn't think of this one, but I like it. Dirt cheap 75-76 Nova 2 dr body, 262 V-8 for T and U/SA. This is the same engine combo as the Don Quinn/ Briane Philbrick Monza that will run in the high 12s in Q. Add the weight difference for U, and whatta ya got ? Leaf spring 8.5 rear bolt in. Just about any SBC headers will work .You could even buy two sets (1,1/2 and 1,5/8ths and splice them together yourself...Sorry Billy... Okay ,get BNRC to do it for you). This combo is actually a lot easier than the Monza. Oh and guys, don't be afraid of the budget built Metric 200 for light duty applications . Get yourself a Turbo action valve body or talk to Leo at Remac. Do a few tricks just like you would to a T350 ( full feed the direct drum, one or two frictions in the low/reverse) and you've got yourself a low gear set trans that'll last forever. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
This is one of THE COOLEST threads I have seen in a long time. Very informative. Thanks to all the contributors.
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Mark -
That is one of my other choices. You may look that there is a slight advantage to the '76 since it has a larger venturi spec IIRC. Also, these cars will all have the 8.5 rear end since this was before the introduction of the 7.5-7.625 rear in anything but the X-bodies. I also like this combination with a four speed in U. Billy - Actually, the 305 Chevy 2-bbl @ 180 is available in a wide choice of bodies from '75-'79, including BOP choices and is not a bad choice at any weight break, even the X-body (Monza-Sunbird-Starfire). The aftermarket 12-bolt for the '82-up F-bodies will bolt in to the X-body when shortened. The tech items you mentioned concerning engine building procedures and choices are exactly applicable ALL THE TIME TO EVERY COMBINATION. (I prefer a moly top ring, however.) |
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How about using a std bore cast rebuilder second ring in a .030 over application? Goes along for the ride and makes you legal.. Guilty! |
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Mark, 68 to 79 Novas (and others) have same width rear. Spring perches are a little different but will bolt up!
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Dwight. I am all for switching it up get a bunch of Q cars even. This would motivate me to race more even with the enhancements. I am sure I could get some of my semi retired slow car friends to come back for this.
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Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
[QUOTE=Dwight Southerland;266857
The tech items you mentioned concerning engine building procedures and choices are exactly applicable ALL THE TIME TO EVERY COMBINATION. (I prefer a moly top ring, however.)[/QUOTE] Cast piston, "tight" wall clearence, No real HP, Moly is too much wall tension for me. (IMHO) |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
I have thought about 82 combo for years. I drove one back in 82 as my daily driver and it ran Low 15's
@ 88 mph with zero modifications. As I recall, I ran best shifting it at 5200-5400. It was a stick car and I believe with decent tires it would have edged the high 14's ( It had some weird Metric Wheel and Tire combo that was rock hard).I I have known about this combo a long time but I never said anything since we run some of the same classes with Jr.'s car...........It sound like the cat just got out of the bag now! We have run very well with the OEM cast pistons and production style/width rings in the boy's 318 and did not go to the big money pistons/rings till we had TriCity build our latest engine a couple of year ago. It was a second under the old index without spending a bunch of money. It currently belongs to one of our friends and may still have some good years of racing yet! |
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Keep 'em coming guys, this thread is awesome. Lower class stockers RULE !!!
Joe Huestis "Annie's Song" '75 Monza 9724 L/SA 350-2V ( Philbrick's old motor) Q,R,& T/SA with my 2 spare 262's in the garage Wake Forest, N.C. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
John,
Only because I have one sitting in the yard I've glanced at the '64 Valiant V100 sedan with the 2bbl 273 and 4sp. It seems to fit in P but I'm not sure but since some of the Mopar guys are running this same engine in the wagons I was wondering if it was a viable combo. JimR |
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I went 12.90's in Q/S with my 65 valiant 273 bbl 4 speed at 100mph. Not a killer but it will run with the good motor out of my U car i could probably go 12.70 today. The other combos out there are much better, cheaper and last but not least simpler to build.
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Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
But that sure looks like fun! And you can't put a price on a good time! None of these combos are "killers" but can they be built for a reasonable price and will they go under the indexes? OBTW, 12.70s in Q is nothing to sneeze at!
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I have a 66 Impala that will not cooperate with my budget, 283 2 barrel @ 170 is beginning yo look real good!!!!! Only seen one guy run one and it was not real stellar. Is this a bad combo for U/SA Billy or Mark? I'm talking CHEAP!!!!
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Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
2V 283 in U will run the index but really small carb will hurt. Don't get carried away with cam.
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Billy
What do think about 1981 monte carlo with the v6. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
It ain't cheap!
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It however did do the index in Q for the 1/8 mile .Did not get to test the 1/4. Plus all i did was intake and carb (only change from my 4 bbl combo). I am sure a gear and converter change would have helped.. |
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Paul, What kind of weight did the car have to carry? JimR |
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We don't want to leave out the Blue Oval Bunch.
1986 T-bird, 302, EFI, 200 hp. This is the early head version with a lower rating. You know the drill, Mustang 8.8 posi, C4 ,good converter.. For the P/SA shootout... or with AOD for a darn good Pure Stocker I would think. Last year when I got the idea, I searched Craigslist. First one up was an old lady car with 60K on it for under two grand. Stock short block, new valve job and cc-ing,stocker cam etc, ought to run under the index like that. Not the expert here though. |
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The carb is the area of focus on the 273 2-bbl MoPar. One of the first stockers I ever had anything to do with was Bob Ayres' "Grog" '66 Q/SA car in 1969-70. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
Mark, I am not sure if that particular combination will work too well.......... :)
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JimR: Paul knows the 273 way better than I do.....I believe different year 2
BRL have different CFM and I just do not know which is which. I have always done better with the 4 BRL combos especially the Thermoquad and Q Jet stuff. |
Re: Some "Dime Rockets" for the 4TH!
Good morning! Ready for another "Dime Rocket"launch?
1981-82 Camaro, Malibu, Monte Carlo with 2V 267/150. I can't believe this one hasn't been done ever! It gives away some cam and valve size to the 262 combo that we all know works but it also gets back 15 HP! Down side would have to be getting cars light enough to run U and it's probably stuck there. It would probably even work with the 7.5 rear (4.56 best ratio) and a short slick which would be lighter and cheaper. Sorry Dwight, this one's auto only. It actually has a bigger carb than the 75 262. Just one more comparo, there were a couple of good running 229 V6s around so we know that they work, the 267 is rated 2 HP less than the V6! |
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Hey Billy, how about a 4 /140 Vega ?? ;)
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Now this is a fun thread.
Much better than the ones with all the pissing & moaning. Any good undiscovered AMC combos out there? |
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My dime in the pot today may stretch the limit because it is EFI, but it has proven potential. 96-99 Jeep Grand Cherokee 242/190-175/170 MPI 2WD of course! One of the best flowing cylinder heads offered on a pushrod American I6, lots of blueprinted compression, more than adequate camshaft. The offroad guys have developed lots of stuff for this engine and the knowledge base is broad and deep. The throttle body flows over 450 cfm according to Chrysler and there are several "tuneup" controllers available that are affordable. AMC Torqueflites bolt up and some years used Dana 44 or AMC 20 rear ends. There is a racer in Div 1 (I cannot remember his name) who runs this same engine in a late 80s Comanche pickup and the later engines are even better. Several superceded parts should be listed in the tech bulletins that cover intake systems and the cylinder head that would possibly be even better than the current listings. This is an R, T, or U car depending on year and model and you could even squeek a 5-speed into the 96 model. We're up to $.20 in the pot now! |
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