What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Well there's been lots of fighting about the cars. I want to make this just out of curiosity. Don't plan on posting, or arguing. Just want to create a poll to see how it shakes out....

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

put them in super stock where they belong
add that to the poll

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

If NHRA implimented choice #2 then #1 would fix itself and some would go to SS where they belong.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

IF they were to take the new "STOCK" HP factors with them. S/S is another ball game with lower ratings for the most part. Stick and auto should be factored to same also.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

In 1966, 50 cars was enough to get a package into stock. NHRA put it to them in 67 and "created" super stock, not letting these cars run in stock any more. All of a sudden, a stock package wasn't any longer. Does this make a precedent? . . .

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Buy one of each

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Wow, there are apparently A LOT more 'clowns' than I thought. So I guess almost everyone in stock is a clown?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

+1

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

I don't have horse in this race and I'm not a class racer so please forgive the ignorance.

I am a long time fan and bracket racer. i do remember when you could order hemi's and ZL-1.... and the role those type of cars played in both class racing and sales on Monday. I do believe it is very important to get the manufacturers and the newer cars into the class if it's going to draw a younger fan/ racer base to survive.

What is the harm/problem if they correct the HP rating and they are treated with the same stock rules that are know currently being used- are they realy any different that the current "paper cars"- and leave them in stock?


Kurt Bastian

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Kurt,

You have an excellent point and it has been suggested in the past "just correct the hp." There are a couple of problems. These cars are so far underrated that it will take several years to do this. Even the LT1s took a while and they weren't that far off, but they were also in their own class until things got sorted out (best solution).

The other problem with correcting the hp on these combos is that Ford mainly and I believe Chrysler have several other combos that are coming out that are just as far underrated as these are. This could take decades to get right or it may never be right if they keep bringing out these new poorly factored combos.

How would you like to be one of the original Cobra Jet/Drag Pak owners and not be able to qualify because the new combos are bumping you? :eek: It would be pretty funny to hear them sing our song, IMHO.

As far as the marketing aspect of this stunt. I personally don't think the "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" is nearly as effective as what GM did with the Camaro in the "Transformers" movie. This is a new age of media and that got much more buzz and sales for the Camaro it appears based on the chart I posted earlier. The Camaro in many months out sells the Mustangs and Challengers combined!

They really do need to keep these cars in Stock, but put them in the proper class and allow them to make the rule book modifications to fit Super Stock/GT where possible. I like the cars and the drivers. I have also noticed that none of the drivers are new to racing.

It would be nice to develop a program that brings new blood into drag racing. I am not sure what that would be, but I am confident that it must include scantily clad women. I bet a Linda Vaughan enmasse' reincarnation marketing effort would work. That is my theory and I am sticking to it. :D

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Quit whining and go find my game.

I am quite sure the sanctioning body will tell you all

" YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR YOU ARE AGIN US, LOL."

Isn't this the way?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

From the 2008 NHRA tax return, page 2, part 3, 4b, first sentence.

" The association establishes rules that govern competition including rules and standards that are described to enhance safety in the sport as well as promote fair competition."

This section is headlined Statement of Program Service Accomplishments.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

18 months ago I thought the new CJ's belonged in FX. But now with all the new cars coming out, I think they all belong in FS - Fantasy Stock!

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

In the world of Fantasy Island...aka...NHRA... LOL!

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

You guys are cracking me up.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Only 8.4% are for keeping things as they are.

I guess it's fair to say, they are a VERY VERY vocal minority.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Giving them all 100 hp would not be out of line, and some may need a little R&D but if turned loose the vast majority would still be very fast in the correct class. Some combos will eventually get more under AHFS. 100 won't be enough for several. I won't hold my breath until it happens.

BTW, I have seen factory stock LT1 & LS1 engines on engine dynes. The 320 hp LS1 made 350 hp. The 275hp LT1 made nowhere close to it's 340+ hp factor. About 318. I did the computers. No tuning, only VATS off.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Maybe, add 1 more choice, quit crying

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

As long as one doesn't show up in I/S anyway, right?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

If one does, I will get beat ,so what, I am more interested in having fun at the track with my friends. Lets face it, most of us lose way more than we will ever win.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

I find enough new ways to lose on my own, I don't need NHRA making up more, lol.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

In class eliminations or in a heads up? You are evidently a bracket racer.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Think all the people who voted, about 180, own stock cars?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Probably about the same percentage as to the Cobra/Jet Drag Paks that comprise the 20 or so votes at the bottom.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Before we even picked up our Drag Pak car in November of 2009 , we were already involved in talks, with other Drag Pak guys, chassis biulders, and Chrysler, about trying to get the cars moved into their own class.

Don't blame the current situation on Drag Pak owners, or even on the Fords (as much as I would like ot blame them..) because it isn't, and never was a plot by Drag pag owners or racers to blow up the indexes up and down the stock classes.

We were put into stock classes and race where we were put.

The Ford guys have some discipline and will keep their HP manegaeable and therefore would be an issue in mid stock clases for a long time to come.

The Mopar guys with everything but the 5.9, however, (at least the ones with 5.7 cars), apparently have little or no discipline, and are just out there "showing off" without regard to how many HP hits we get. So it is unlikely that the Mopars will be bothing many of the lower classes very long. We started in F/SA with our 5.7, in a week got bumped up to E/SA, and another week got bumped again to D/SA, and now are an A/B/C car. And it is only a matter time until we are running AA/SA and A/SA only.

And then it will probably happen all over again in Super Stock.

So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Not so fast. The AHFS is working, but it is far from final. It is working by design just like it does with any other combination, but the Drag Paks and Cobra Jets started from a very underfactored number. The only way one can say it is working is due to mathematical calculations and not that it is working in the respect that the cars are properly factored.

And to infer that this is much to do about nothing is disingenuous at best. The complaints about the current Drag Pak/Cobra Jet combinations are the tip of the iceberg. It has taken nearly 3 years on some of these combos to get them within sight of their proper horsepower ratings. Where were we at this point with the much maligned LT1s? They were going into their own class to finish sorting out and they weren't that much out of line in the first place!

Back to the tip of the iceberg. For you to suggest that we were wrong with the complaints, how do you suggest we handle the Drag Pak/Cobra Jet combos that are yet to be released? Are we to expect to wait three years on each combo to get them close? This is a perpetual problem for Stock Eliminator, Super Stock, and Super Stock GT (which is the most difficult to factor, IMHO).

So, David, how do you suggest we handle this going forward? You know my feelings. The FX class for Stock is the perfect place to show off these cars and combos. It is self fulfilling. Frankly, I don't see how you have a logical argument for anything different, but I am listening.

Don

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

I never said that the cars were "properly factored" from the start.
I did say that a car that started about a month ago at 305 HP, and now is at 348 HP would seem to indicate that, at least in the case of the 5.7 DP Challenger that the AHFS works at least a little bit.

And unless you know a way to turn back the clock, I don't think all of the whining and complaining is going to change the initial factors one bit.

I also absolutely agreed that the cars need their own class, and even told you about talks that were held clear back last year about getting these cars into one, and my thoughts that the best thing for these cars would be to be put into their own class.

Back to the tip of what iceberg? As for complaining about cars and factors that haven't even been released yet, what good is that? What can you base your complaints about those yet to be produced and yet to be factored cars upon? Do you just assume that the NHRA is out to screw you, or do you have inside info on the factors there? If you have specifics, let's talk about it. If not, then why don't we wait until there is some pain, before we start bleeding.

Back to the basics of the discussion.

Should these cars be in a separate class? YES!

Now, I have already agreed on literally every one of your truly salient points. (Although I may not agree that I was somehow disingenuous in my attitude about this situation. I still don't think anything is going to change just by complaining about it. I even tried by having talks behind the scenes with parties involved, and that hasn't done a lot of good lately.)

So what good has the poll, or all of this talk done?

Let me know when it really does more than just make you feel better to get it off your chest. And if that is all it does, then just keep doing what you need to do.

It makes no sense to continue to tell each other how we feel, since you apparently don't seem to hear me, and although I have heard you, and understand your position, I still don't see any real good situation changing result from the discussion at this point.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

The 5.7 has been hit 43 hp since June 2010, obviously the system is functioning. The 6.1 has gotten 14 and the 5.9 has 9. And again, where was all this concern before these cars came on the scene. The bad factored cars just sucked hind *** and that was ok with stock and super stock primarily because most of them are GM cars and it's ok for others to get the bad factors. Now because GM has elected not to participate, it's a bad thing.
I didn't change. I had a bad factored car, not slow, just factored bad, and after that many years of getting my *** kicked, I bought another car. Now I'm on the other end. Like I said, I didn't change. Run another poll. Get the posters to show what class they ran in the last two years, and what brand they run. On a larger note, there are probably less than 30% of the racers who give a hoot about going fast. Other than Indy, they get in the show and in many cases beat the crap out of the fast cars. Maybe a seperate posting about Indy, and the rest of the races. One thing the new cars pointed out even more is the need for new parts in the old cars. I have only been asking for that for the last 15 years. New parts accross the board, not a select few combos. Hell last year I found 3 carbs for a 69 Imperial (the only year it was used) which I claim in a GT car I got. I love to hear a chevy guy complain about parts. Try that one on for size. The fixes aren't hard, and they will come. Just look at Stock Trucks and the changes that took place, The LT1 and LS1, and some others. There will never be pure parity in these classes and Stock and Super Stock will always be a dynamic pair of eliminators. This discussion reminds me of two old happenings. The best known is in NASCAR when they outlawed the Hemi. It just went too fast. In NHRA around 1962 there was the 409 Chevy and the 406 Ford and there may be 20 or 30 at any race. Then this ugly goat-looking l962 Mopar with a 413 with the carbs mounted sideways appears. Same arguments, just 40 or 50 years ago.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Well, you are backing off your "it is working" to "works a little." But this is from your previous post. "So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks." It has taken too long and they are not there, yet. And only one of them (the 5.7) is within sight.

What good is complaining about cars that haven't been released yet? We were complaining about these before they were released and guess what, we were right. The cars are going to be released and they are not Stock Eliminator cars! They are Factory Experimental Cars! Until they get them in the proper class then the complaints are justified. I know you agree that they should be in their own class, but you don't think I have the right to complain about their current categorization then you are flat wrong.

What do I base the complaints on? Refer back to the previous paragraph and the fact that these motors are cherry picked parts from the perfomance catalog and not from ANY car that has been registered for the street. Factory experiments.

NHRA out to screw me? Don't know about that, but they sure put their interests before the sportsmen. Can you show any differently? I don't have any inside info on the factors, but they have repeatedly factored these combos so low it is comical. There is a pattern if you haven't noticed.

Why wait? You know the pain is there until they are put in their own class (which is about to happen). You keep asking why I have a problem with these future combos without know the HP factor. The HP factor isn't the real problem. The real problem is that these are not Stock cars, they are experiments and there is no way in Hades that a stock combo can compete with Comp Eliminator pieces or power adders with any amount of money, time, and development. There are physics involved here.

How does "whining" as you call it do any good. Don't fool yourself into thinking we are in a vacuum here with our comments. The public comments in these forums do make their way back to Glendora and they do help the cause.

It may be before your internet time, but there was a popular forum called Home Theater.com. At that time there was a product introduced by Circuit City called DIVX. This was a competing format to the newly introduced DVDs. Basically, DIVX was more leasing the movies where DVDs were ownership. The choices were fine since many people would watch a movie maybe once or twice which would make the DIVX format much more cost effective. No problem with choices, so what's the rub?

Well....Circuit City had lobbied the studios not to release their movies on DVD and only do it on DIVX. Disney agreed to Circuit City's pressure and would only release their movies on this pay per view format. This was about the time that Lion King was coming out. Can you imagine how many times your kid or grandkid would want to watch a partial movie of Lion King? Pony up $4.95 for the first 48 hours and then $3 for every 48 hour time slot after that. This would have been a huge money maker for DIVX and the studios! Warner Bros wouldn't cave into Circuit City along with a couple of others, but the majority of the studios could see how this would be a gold mine.

Back to the public "whining." The studios would monitor this website in order to get the "pulse" of the general public about DIVX. The hard core enthusiast were on this website like they are here (see a pattern?). We hammered Circuit City and it was having an effect. CC started putting plants (DIVX employees) on the website to make it appear that DIVX wasn't so bad and there was a lot of support for the format. Problem was that we had a plant of our own within DIVX and we knew what was they were doing. Slowly, but surely we exposed each of the plants on the forums. They studios could see the true feeling of the buying public and started releasing their titles on both formats. That was all we asked. Just give us the choice to buy or lease.

It didn't take long for the DIVX format to fail because nobody really liked the idea of variable costs vs. fixed costs for your movie library. The DIVX fiasco cost CC over a billion dollars to shut down. Continuing bad decisions put them into bankruptcy.

This was about 15 years ago. You have to believe that companies realize that the internet can potentially break you if you are not careful. So this public "whining" that you discount is not discounted by these companies or even the NHRA.

Don

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

All three DP combos still need horsepower. Probably about 40 for the 6.1, 50 for the 5.7, and god help us all when someone fast builds a 5.9 and goes 10.0 cause that thing needs about 80 and presently no one from H up is safe.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Works a little, or works........ the "works" part is still true. Nice nit picking there on a line that didnt change the meaning of what was said. Are the new cars getting horsepower added? YES! Is it happening fast enough for you, apparently not. But that doesn't mean it isn't working.

And as for anything about something being before my Internet time (Not sure why you think how long I have been on the internet somehow helps with your point. Or how it might undermine mine.) But for your information, NOTHING on the Internet was before my Internet time. I was on the Internet before the "World WIde Web" www even came about: can you say telnet, or gopher, and know how they even relate to the Internet. If you simply wish to discount me and any of my thoughts about anything, then continue to throw out red herrings that don't relate to drag racing, or the NHRA in any way, but simply shows that in one unrelated industry, an "unfairness" was averted by the market place.

Clue for you: The world isn't always fair.

And once again, if you wish to continue to rail against the powers that be, then so be it.

It hasn't changed anything that wouldn't have changed anyway. And in the future, when new cars get factored, it won't change anything then either.

Oh, BTW thanks for the report on the state of the video formats. I will put a copy of that on my shop wall, so whenever anyone is talking cars and I dont agree, and I want to change the subject, or just cloud up the issue, I will have it covered.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

David,

Nice dancing around with the ad hominem. My part about the video formats wasn't changing the subject in the least. It was answering your challenge about the "public whining" having no effect.

If the world isn't fair comment the best you can do then you have drifted away from a logical, salient discussion towards an insignficant one.

Your final comment about works a little is a significant difference from your original post that the AHFS worked at least in the Drag Paks case. The game isn't over and it won't be until these factory experimental race cars are racing other factory experimental race cars in a "fair fight." Yeah the world isn't fair, but at least we should be able to compete on a level playing field. That is, of course, you feel the need to bring the nuclear bomb to a knife fight in order to compete properly.

I for one wouldn't get any satisfaction out of that.

Don

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Don now that you know what the weapon of choice is. Maybe you should consider trading your knife for at least a six shooter. Its probably not going to get any easier.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

One of the things I think you fail to realize is the way that NHRA works. It doesn't necessarily work the same as all big businesses work. First, NHRA always takes care of its biggest customers. What do Roy Hill, Jeg Coughlin, J.C. Beattie and Jim Defrank have in common? They all have either Drag Pak or Cobra Jets in their race stables and their family businesses are advertisers in National Dragster. They also show up at some of the NHRA national events and race. Do you think that your opinion matters to NHRA more than the previouslty mentioned racers? Second, do you think your opinion matters more to NHRA than the opinion of Chrysler Or Ford? Although I have been accused of not using my name in my posts, my posts have my first initial with my last name, do you think that NHRA cares about someone who they don't probably even know? They would probably tell you that if you don't like the way things are build one of the new cars. If you say you can't afford to do that then they would say gee, thats too bad because like I said earlier NHRA takes care of its best customers and You probably don't have enough money to be one of their best customers. Are you starting to understand why you are preaching to an empty Church?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

So, if (when) they put these cars in the FX class (or equivalent) for 2011 what will you say?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

FX classes won't help SS, where stock CJs were 1 & 2 is SS at Indy.
Only the most ignorant about engines would look at the engine specs and say "close enough".

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

so you're saying Bruce and Danny did their best?

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

I would be surprised if NHRA did that because the rumor a few years ago was that the reason that NHRA did away with the fuel injected and truck classes was because the manufacturers were complaining there were too many classes in stock. I really don't care one way or another if they put the new cars in a different class. You were the one that seemed to think NHRA cared about your opinion and I explained why I think they don't.

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

Prepare to be surprised. I don't think they care about my individual opinion, but I do think our collective opinion carries weight with them. Where did you get the information (rumor) that the manufacturers were complaining about too many classes in stock?

Don

Re: What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?
 

I probably got my information from the same place that told you there were going to be new classes next year.