Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I need a new set of headers for the Volare. The Kooks are paper thin and broke in several places this past weekend. I was told Performace Welding is making the best headers right now. I really would like some input. They are expensive (like Kooks) but are supposed to be worth it. Also, are stainless worth the added cost? Thanks in advance. Jim

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Jim if you want the best try Calvin Elston at Elston exhaust In North Carolina. Stainless tri-y's expensive but worth it.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Greg, they are ALL expensive now. My first set of headers (Casler) were $69. Jim

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I use Marks (Performance Welding) merge collectors on my Pontiac. He really knows his stuff and they are great quality.
He is a great person to go to considering your combo. His small block A body that Steve Wann often drives is one of the fastest A bodies around. You should talk to him about what he does on his car. He actually has a second merge collector where both headers merge into one exhaust. Sounds a bit different but the thing sure is fast.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Jim, only one name...Calvin Elston
.13 on our SBC (never dynoed as the headers would not fit the cradle)
13 hp 15 ft-lbs TQ on our BBC 396 (back to back over some pretty good stuff)

www.elstonheaders.com

Bill

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Bill Grubbs $3200 for 13hp and 15 tq? Is that about right?

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Mark at Performance Welding has lots of years of R&D and hands-on knowledge behind him. I have spent time with Mark and has a sound knowledge with regards to racing exhaust system design. Similar header designs will not work on all applications and Mark has lots of experience on what works on different engines.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I have two sets depending on which cam and head combo you are using. TTI 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" step for the small cam with performance welding merge collectors. Nice header with easy access and no suspension to take apart. The big cam high flow head motor uses 1 7/8" long tube with a performance welding merge collectors theses wrap arond the frame rail and have EXCELLENT off head transition. made by Vandergriff in NC.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I have a set on my Dart, you will not be disappointed! Mark is great to deal with and knows his stuff, give him a call!

Shawn 6383

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

We have a real nice set of three step headers for our 2009 Challenger Drag Pak by Pete Z at AppleTree and they seem to doing the job.

We also have a brand new set of TTI stainless that we have not yet tried since Pete got us the other headers right away, and we were waiting in line for the TTI's, but we may give the TTI's a try when we are running locally now that we are back from our wild west trip.

The TTI's are pretty and TTI does a lot of good work....

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

If you are looking for max performance and a great fit without having all the sales pitch BULL. Call Mark @ ComFab he is in NC. He has been building headers for myself and many of my customers for years, he also builds alot of the Pro Stock and Comp headers. His number is (336) 662-4959 tell him I told you to call you will not regret it.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

All of the above turn out great headers. You might want to call Jere Stahl 717-846-1632.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Back to the original question, stainless does offer a HP improvement. The pulses react differently to stainless than steel tubing. I can't say that from experience as I've never had the pleasure to own such a set. That's what my engine builder says. He also says some internal coatings (not ceramic based) are a good alternative. He DOES have the before / after to back up the stainless or coated headers vs. regular steel.
Maybe our engineer SSDiv6 can chime in...

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Talk to Calvin on the cost as some cars require more work than others. If you have a 1st gen Camaro or a second gen Nova he has a jig and does not need the car, For others he will need the car as they are custom built for each specific car/frame/steering/engine mounts/engine combination.

Even though the cost is not inexpensive dollar wise...when you get to the +1 under area his cost for HP and torque is very reasonable. In this area you can spend multiples of the header cost and still not gain nearly as much as you will with his headers.

Basically for a .3-.5 under car, money can be better spent in other areas. It all comes down to the HP per dollar equation. However, with the 'Law of Diminishing Returns" there will be a time when the cost per HPfor the headers will be less expensive compared to other options.

Bill

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Well said Bill and I do understand your point. I am looking for maximum hp from whatever header I choose. Headers are very expensive now, that has become painfully obvious to me as of late. The reason I asked about Performance Welding is because George Widuch uses them and recommended them to me. As you may know he built my car as well as all of Jerry Bennett's cars. I called Mark Leichook at PW and he told me he owns the 340 Dodge that Wann drives and I think he is very much in tune with all that George has taught me. The mild steel headers on the car were made by Don Chromer many years ago and the only thing holding them together was the Nitroplate coating!

Jeff, Mark told me you are correct, SS headers make more HP because of the way the exhaust pulsing reacts to it. He said they don't get many requests for mild steel tubing anymore. There must be a reason why all the Pro Stock and Comp guys run nothing but SS headers.

Ron, I ran Jere Stahl's headers on my SS car many, many years ago. They are a high quality header also.I still have them. Jim

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I will keep it simple because header design is a science that involves many parameters and the discussion can go for years due to the many theories and principles.

The use of stainless steel as header material does not have anything to do with exhaust pulses. The dampening of the exhaust pulse can be controlled with any steel if you vary its thickness or gage. In fact, the aircraft industry uses Inconel. The real factors are undisturbed exhaust gas mass and density, MACH/Supersonic exhaust speed and the heat transfer advantage the stainless steel material offers.

Because mild steel headers will deteriorate due to heat and corrosion, many racers will coat the headers internally to make them last longer. Do not get me wrong, keeping the heat inside the headers for a short time, is a good thing. However, when you coat the headers internally it has other effects such as reducing the exhaust velocity, and as a result, affecting heat transfer. Therefore, when you have a stainless steel header, you do not have the issue of reduced exhaust velocity and heat transfer because you do not have to coat the header internally.

Exhaust coatings have their place in applications of extreme heat such as turbocharged engines. In this type of application, a Ceramic coating is beneficial because too much heat can slow down the supersonic exhaust velocity downstream.

Again, it is an issue of much you want to spend. If you have a mild steel header and coated for longevity, you will give up some power. If you have the money, a well-designed stainless steel header will give you longevity and power. I said, “well designed” because I have noticed too many cars at the track with header designs that are either too big, too long or too short for their intent.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

WOW! Lots of good info. Thank you sir! Jim

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Since no one else has, I have to ask the question, in all seriousness. How much HP are we talking about, material for material ? 1% to 5%, what is the real number, on 300 hp ? On 400, or 600 HP?

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Material does not have the effect claimed. It is the design of the header that makes the power. Like I said in my previous post, if you coat the inside of the header, then you are compromising performance. If you have a stainless header, then you do not have to coat the inside.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Eric Bell, who has a "reasonably fast" 440-6 SS/E & FA Challenger, went from the header builder I have always used to Performance Welding. As I recall, in back-to-back dyno testing the PW headers were worth 15+ HP.
His style in building headers (from what I have seen) is exactly what I think is a prerequisite over "tuned length" headers, that is, Mark wants long stubs off the exhaust port and "swoopy" curves more so than being +/- 1/4".

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

About 3-4 years ago, we did some dyno testing for NitroPlate. On a standard set of roadster style dyno headers, a 406 small block Chevy making about 500HP gained approximately 2% HP when we coated the headers. It took tuning to get there.

The first thing we found was that the coating leaned the engine out considerably, the average EGT increased by well over 120 degrees. We had tuned the engine to around 13.2:1 AFR, which yielded the most power before we coated the headers.

With no other changes but the coating, the AFR went to around 14:1, and the EGT went to 1480 + degrees at the end of a 20 second pull. That first pull was down about 4%-6%. However, after we got the AFR back to 13.2:1, and the EGT back down to 1360 or so, we had gained a little over 2% over the base line.

If you tune and record EGT, you may find that you cannot get the EGT back down to where it was before the headers were coated. The coating reflects heat back into the header, so even properly tuned, the EGT is often higher than it is with an uncoated header.

We did not do any testing to see if there were gains to be had because of a reduction in under hood heat. We hope to do more testing in the future, but we haven't scheduled anything as of yet. We did test intake coating, we found around 1% or so on a dual plane single 4 barrel intake coating the exterior only, top and bottom, on a 350 small block Chevy 350HP limited circle track engine.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

i was part of some testing on a fast burn crate engine, the engine made "x" horsepower on the dyno with a set of custom made regular steel 1 3/4" headers (approx $2500), a second set of headers were tried, custom built for the same style car (mid 80"s camaro) 1 3/4 header, different builder and gained 6 horse and a couple of foot lbs. Then we tried my headers which are right out the catologe Schonfield's 1 5/8 to 13/4 stepped steel header with out collectors, to fit my 67 chevelle. i had mark at Performance Welding make up a set of stainless merg collectors and this combo out did the second set of headers by 11 horsepower without so much as a jet change. $210 for headers $400 for merge collectors 17 horse, win - win in my books!

Performance welding was the only merge collector builder that i contacted that actually asked what my combonation was besides just a 350 ci crate engine. i have to figure that most header builders would not have info on crate motor options as it is only IHRA run, so to be asked for specs showed me i wasn't just going to get another "on the shelf" part that would work for many combos including mine, or at least they made me feel that way. the dealings i had at Performance would make me go back again.

Ian

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Ian Hill

In your test, did you add the collectors to your headers for this test or were they always on the car? If it's the later maybe puting the collectors on the custom headers would be another 6+ hp better??

just curious

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

i played around a little between the standard set of Schonfield's and a set of the same with perf. welding collectors. it became instantly clear that the set with the merg collector made some serious gains in the torque curve and amounts while slightly increasing the horspower.

I would like to agree with SSdiv6, and add a bit here. i my opinion, as insignificate as it may be - stainless headers vs. steel headers. As long as the headers are made by the same person, on the same jig with the same gage metal, they should make the same horse power. that being said 5 engines built the exact same way will never make the same horsepower, so good luck. where there is a chance for human error, there will be a chance for human error. while maing headers this could be a simple as a header radius being trimmed .062" too long or the start or stop of the tig weld putting a pimple of weld into the inner diameter of the tube thus affecting the air flow.

Stainless, to me, is only being used for the purpose that these headers become your last set of headers. they will outlast you, your car or your combination. What would change my way of thinking is if someone would expand on the fact that stainless holds more heat than regular steel there for is there chance that from pulse to pulse there is less change of temperature? if this was true, i would expect velocity to slow down using stainless vs steel as the convection of cooler air helping to pull the hotter air out of the head would be less. Or is it that air pulses being closer to the same temperature travel quicker?

This is a great thread so far, great imputs from all. I would say if you are lucky enough, like my self, to find an off the shelf cheap set of headers that work to your expectations, then hooray for us! oher wise open your wallet. i have been .89 under in my first year as a stocker racer and am having a blast. i look forward to next weekend as i should be out for the first time this year. rebuilt motor way more trans gear, diff gear and more spark - a million ways to slow a race car down, i hope i miss them all.
Ian

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Jere Stahl told me once that headers had about 5% to do with total drag car performance. If he is correct, I would think header material would be some fraction of that.

This is a good thread!

Bill

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Jim: We are going to see if we can find Mark at Sportsnls. next week....we need 3 sets ourselves....maybe if he builds a bunch at once we can get a little bit of a deal. I have a couple of step design we have been using that work well. Racer7411@yahoo.com

John Irving

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Does he have E-mail or web site?

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

This is pretty old (2003), but a good SpeedTalk interview with Mark.

http://speedtalk.com/shows/009_mark_lelchook.html

I am not sure what these sell for these days.

Bill

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Mark does some real nice work, got to see it up close last weekend in a new car that just got put together. stainless steel Tri Y

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

Jim; I know Mark vary well, just in the last couple of weeks I watched him make new headers for George W. John Shawl and a set for Brad Van Lant to test for A-body cars. You Know these guys are vary fast.

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

I have spoken to Mark twice now and I believe he can build me a good set of headers. He told me he took his small block Mopar Stocker out this past weekend and had a great time. He is very easy to talk to and I can't wait to receive my new SS headers! I will keep everybody up to date on the progress. Jim

Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers?
 

NOBODY better than MARK! (as good, but no better). Customer service is out of this world! J.B.