Manual Trans Help
Hey, guys. My project is a 1976 Firebird with a 400. I am building it for NHRA Stock and i want to run a 4 speed. At this time, a Jericho is out of the question so what is my best bet? Super T10? Thanks for the help.
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Spend the extra for a Jerico, it will pay for itself in the end
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if your going to run a stick you need to go with a good trans ,jerico,liberty,but depends how resourceful you are you mite be able to find a doug nash five speed that is converted to a four speed but finding gear ratios will be a challenge to find ,,strong but old
gmonde |
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You car is only as strong as the weakest link. The T10 would be the weakest link.
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Your problem won't be so much the trans , but rather ,the clutch.
Too much weight, not enough hp and rpm to use counterweights effectively. I f you can't afford a Jericho, I'm going to assume you won't be able to put a good clutch in it either. You CAN find an old Doug Nash 4+1 with about a 2.96 low and it will be strong enough, but remember, a 1 to1 4th gear, is still driving through the cluster. You 'll have some loss there. Bottom line though, is, and trust me when I tell you this (been there, done that) , this whole deal is a bad idea. I would advise you to not do this. |
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What whole deal is a bad idea? Running a stick or building a stocker?
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Running a stick with that combination. |
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Yes, there are moderately priced B&B /Long style 10.5 -11 " that are somewhat adjustable, but I don't believe they will get the job done in this application. By that I mean you're most likely to either break parts or smoke the disc in the waterbox. Even if you find a happy medium , I don't think the 60' times will be consistent enough to win races. I'm not trying to discourage you from building a Stocker, by any means. We need all we can get, just not this combination. |
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yes, i'll be using a st-10 w/ 3.44 1st,bunch lighter car,though |
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all those tips are all true, but i know you can run a T-10 or nash and get buy if you run 1800 base with rag clutch and be fairly easy on parts, or help me out here guys, 300-400 on sintered iron and get by on the base with a long style pressure plate. stanley dye sells all sorts of used nash parts, just be careful.
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i agree with randy in the fact that you can make a nash or a st-10 live.i think mark is referring to the lack of experience in causing stuff to not work out.butwith the right clutch setup both trans's can live and you can have a whole lot of fun racing in the stock/superstock organizations until you can afford to put the best bullet proof pieces in it to go to nhra races with and be compettive.kris rachford(69 cobra) and i both know the same person that can make a st-10 that would work very well in this format.
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Unless you already have a transmission to start with, you will be much, much better off to wait until you can save the money to buy a Jerico or G-Force. Yes, you can make a T-10 live, especially if you know how to work on them and work on your clutch. However, if you are starting from scratch, good used race transmissions are regularly available in the $2000-$2800 range if you shop around. You will spend at least half that much for a T-10 that will live. You have a combination that is heavy, low rpm (relatively), and lots of torque. OEM T-10 parts will not last. There are nickel gear sets available, but they are not cheap. Cast iron cases are available for the T-10, but they are not cheap.
Before the rules were opened up to allow aftermarket transmissions, my number one cause of lost races due to mechanical failure was transmission, and I was buying the best available stuff from G&G. One of the factors I considered when moving from Stock to Super Stock at the time was being able to use an aftermarket transmission. The Jerico made my racing fun again. My transmission maintenance cost in time and money was 1/10 of what it had been, even moving from A/S to SS/C. Bottom line - even if you have to delay your racing by a year, you will more than make up for the lost time in enjoyment factor and money saved. My humble opinion, worth approximately a nickel in today's economy, but still a bargain. |
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Hey, guys. This is a very infomative conversation. Keep it up! There definately seems to be more of a learning curve with a stick, but that's cool with me. This car will probably not see NHRA action for a few years, I just want to pick a plan and stick with it so i can get to where i want to be and i definately want to run a stick. It will just take me awhile to get to the high end stuff.
Hey Scott D, i would appreciate the info on your st-10 guy if you don't mind sharing :). |
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In a non -altitude situation , I'd say that's way too much first gear for a light , V8 car. It'll hurt more than it help ...Launch , clutch setup , and even mph , if you can believe that. I ran a 3.97 first in my 2300 turbo Mustang ,but for an entirely different reason. |
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Tom slik,
That trans is weakest T-10 made&ratios are terrible. 3.42/2.28/1.46/1-1. 1-2 is not bad 2-3 can you say bogggg?3-4 is not bad but still drops rpm pretty bad. Back when I first started racing still drove car on street broke my trans buddy had one of those 3.42 first T-10s traded him out of it I knew it was super t-10 but had no ideal what the ratios were,pulled out of garage knew 1st was lower.eased through gears made sure it worked turn around launched it on way back 1st was quick went 2nd I thought hey this feels good went to third I thought it was going to kill engine. 2-3 has gear spread about like GM bulldog 4 spd has on 2-3 shift. Made about 6 passes in 12.70 street tire car not sticky street tires plain ol back in the day N-50s. Soft clutches absolutely help but I would'nt run a stock style trans unless I have to which I do in my Pure Stocker. I see ol Nash's sometimes 800.00 and up Liberty is selling there version of nash 5 spd. and all the parts are supposed to interchange with original nashes there have faceplate style sliders. If you buy a 2 or 3 T-10s you have come close to a new Jerico.600.00 up is about going price for good used T-10,then if you pro shift it you spent about another 300.00 if you can tear apart & put back together yourself. I have'nt checked in last year or so but new Jerico was about 2500.00 plus ship & shifter. Mike Taylor 3601 |
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mtwilly you have a pm.
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Mr.Yacavone,
I remember very well, and still have the articles from High Performance Magazine of your Project Eliminator 77 Firebird. I have a 78 T/A that I always thought could be a stocker someday and i have to credit those series of articles from the 90's as motavation. Could you please expand on why you feel a manual trans in a low compression 400 second generation firebird is not a good mix. It sounds like its not really a parts breaking or clutch issue to you but something else. Those cars are heavy and the motor limited in RPM so is it you cant put enough gear reduction into it to avoid the old spin or bog situation? Lets assume were using a bullet proof driveline and a good clutch. |
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^^^^ That's basically it. It's just a hard combo to make leave consistently.
We ran .88's with the stick ,but I suppose, with the high dollar lifters and higher seat pressure , you could run it through okay with 5.13's . That might help with overall gear ratio lower. I don't see where a lightweight double or triple disc setup would work . It seems to need some flywheel weight to launch within the rpm range. The automatic cars work very well with a 4.56 gear, so you see that all that extra gear required for a stick is not a good situation. Bottom line ,as I said; Too much weight, not enough rpms for a stick. Build a 67-8 car if you have to have a stick shift Pontiac. Thanks for reading and remembering those articles. Mark |
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I am very curious about this thread, I have "considered" also running the DP as a stick car.
I likes gears.....and Im good at shifts....(better if I can do it with my foot but...) I am seeing everyone say go aftermarket, pretty much across the board. I have a new T56 Viper tranny that came with the DP car (ours didnt come with a "core" as many others did, but a current year new tranny) So..... The ratios are 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 0.74 0.50 2.90 I would obviously never get past 4th (gated plate to lock them out ?) Is there anything "wrong" about running this trans ? I know they can handle the power if built right, no problems. What other things might be "run into" using this combo ? The other ratios readily available are 2.97 2.07 1.43 1.00 Just thinking .... I like the idea, but Im not shelling out 5k+ on our next auto PLUS a gearbox, IF I could use th viper tranny I would consider it, otherwise its going in my 72 Chally..... Cheers Chris Quote:
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hey drooze keep up the good work on pop's car can't wait to see it run and see the numbers.on the other question in stock if i'm not mistaken you can use the same amount of forward speeds that the car came with from the factory,that being said why go to a 4speed when you could use a 5 or 6 speed and go to a deeper low gear set with not as much rpm drop on the gear changes to keep the motor in its powerband easier and make it more efficient.
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Thanks
Well......why not 6 .... hmmm..... I guess if the motor has the "umph" why not go with a wider ratio and 4 , less shifts, less potential for error, I have yet to see a really fast and consistent 6 speed out there (dosent mean there arent , I just havent seen it) That being said, 1-4 seems ok...and the ratios available for the T56 seem nice for that (the 1-4) cant see using .83 in a drag car ever ? (could be 110% wrong though) Thats why Im asking.... Cheers Chris Quote:
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in a 5 speed aplication you could go as low as you wanted as in a 3.50 low gear and evenly space out the rest of the ratio's to help with the rpm drop off on the gear changes.in the 4 speed it would be like a 3.0-3.2 low gear an then second would be in the 2.0-1.9 range and there would be a bigger drop off than there would with a 5 speed.i do know that a ss/ah stick team tested with 4speeds and 5speeds and these were the results that they came up with,the car was faster with the 5 speed and the powerband was more managable because it didn't have to be as wide as with the 4speed.
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oh, i'm not saying that it's the desirable trans BUT i have it and it won't be going on the "good" engine... i think i figured out once upon a time if this car ran a 14 flat up here, it's be a record run... btw, the rear is an 8 3/4 mopar w/4.57 gears (8.5x26" tall tires, ain't room for anything taller or wider) |
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the biggest question is can i still shift? not the trans, ...me. i AM getting older...but i have NO desire to run an auto....i'm doing this for fun and, honestly, if it ends up being another "job",i'll run brackets (we've got a stick series out here... |
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How come manual trans threads draw so many opinions ? With all this ratio talk how would a 2 spd ever get downtrack? ...Thanx Trevor
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Save up buy a Jerico and a soft-lok clutch(Hyatt,Mcleod,Advanced,Ram, etc) and you will be happy. Ed
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I would disagree with Mark that a stick won't work well because of the weight and low RPM of the car. It's evident in the post he's behind the times and clutch and flywheel technology have come a long way since he had the Pontiac.
On the other hand, I think if one can't afford to do it right (trans, clutch package), then you would save yourself a lot of expensive aggravation if you stayed away from a stick. |
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Only reason I'm behind the times ,is because I choose to be ,especially with that combination. |
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Slik tom,
Using what I have or can make or repair is my life story also. Driving stick is just like riding bicycle. Drooze, If you have 72 challenger I would'nt even put that trans in it sell it. Nobody uses those trans because you can buy a good trans probaly for what you would spend on that one. Overdrive gears aren't counted for number of gears of trans if I'm correct Idon't know if there are any 5spd stockers? More gears you have the better you can make the ratios faster the car goes on SS/AH 5 spd would help because less drop on shifts would calm down car and clutch could probaly be softer because ratios closer together can soften clutch more before you run through it. Mike Taylor 3601 |
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The only real choices for a stocker that exist today are jericos and Gforce. I know of a guy that has a really good deal on a DR-4 Jerico with Long Shifter. It is the one that is close to the same length as a stock trans. It was in a stocker with a small block.I use the longer one so I don't want to carry 2 lengths of driveshafts with me for a spare. It is a good deal. e mail me if you are interested and I will send you the contact info. jimschaechter@earthlink.net
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There are several 5-speed stocker racers out there. They all seem to be in SBF combinations. Little engines should really benefit from them!
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With what i have spent on new light-weight p/g and several converters testing , I wish i would have gone the stick way. Probably have less in it . And more fun. I used to have a big -block 66 chevelle with the rock crusher in it and ran 11.60's , never broke anything just running old school set -up. I don't see why this would not work with my 283 running 12.0's and a lot lighter. You guys got me scared to try it now.
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Danny, you won't break a Rock Crusher with a 283, but you will need a rolling start to keep the engine from stalling with that 2.20 low! LOL.
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