True SS/AA Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Okay guys, here is a good topic for discussion. Why can't there be a true class war. I personally love the SS/AH class, but I would much rather see all of the Top Dog's from each manufacturer go at each other like in the days of old. I think that if the right people and officials were put together to police it, that something like this could happen. Lets get some discussion on the topic. Mopar, AMC, Ford, and Chevy guys alike. What do you guys see as the problems with why nothing like this could happen?


Reoccurring Problems that may have happened in the past:

Poor management of constructing parity between each automobile manufacturers by NHRA tech dept.

Whiners and complainers from each manufacturer campaigning to get cars thrown out instead of reviewing possible ways to achieve equality.

Constant bombardment of weight penalties




Potential Cars for competition:

68 Hemi Darts and Barracudas

67-69 Chevy Corvettes and Camaros

64 Fairlane

69 AMX ?



Obviously, to run this class certain weight breaks will have to be reconstructed for parity. What would be the easiest way to achieve parity. I'm assuming weight would be the biggest factor here? If this happened, SS/AH would become SS/?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

will NEVER happen....just a wish

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

You know what's great about the SS/AH class (besides the fact that I'm a die-hard Mopar fan)? It's a "pure" class. Same engine combination. No weight factors, no AHFS disrepancies, no "that combination wasn't built" arguments. It pits driver vs. driver, engine builder vs. engine builder. There are no 1000' runs protecting a combo so they can clean house with others in their class. It's drag racing in its most basic element.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Its a pretty cool idea,but IMHO the closest you will ever get to this is the current GT/A,B&C cars.The cars that that will be in these classes for indy cover a pretty broad spectrum and provide for some pretty tight class wars with cars from different manufactures.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

the Hemi guys don't want ayone else in their playground, its that simple. Mopar wouldn't put up the money any more, i mean after all how would they feel about writing a check to a chevy. Then you also have the issue of how SS/AH is regualted, they have a little more leeway than the rest of SS. Although with the inner fender ruling earlier this year tehy appear to reigning it back in some

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I have no answer for the "class war; how can we start one" question, but since the Hemi subject has come up, I have a comment ffor your perusal. Maybe I'm missing something, but this is how I see it:

The Hemis in question (the ones that used to run in SS/AA) are unique in several signifiicant ways, the MOST significant being that no one has yet built a car that can outrun them, generlly speaking. If you have watched these cars, from the outset (in 1968), one thing has stood out: Not Ford, nor G.M., nor American Motors has fielded a car with a power-to-weight ratio that could compete with them, heads up.

They had no trouble totally dominating their class (SS/AA) to the detriment of any other cars that tried to run competitively in that class.

When the rules were changed to give the the Hemis their own class, at least one consequence made itself known: Now, there was the real possibility that say, an L-88 Corvette, could achieve a class win in SS/AA. Brandon Wilkinson (with Kenny Schindler's magic) made that possible... something that would likely not have happened if the SS/AA Hemis had remained in that class.

At first blush, I was not aware that having been given their own class, the Hemis would not be allowed to race in SS/AA, instead of SS/AH, if that was their choce; after all, they still fit the class requirements (pounds per factored HP, etc.)

It seemed to me that running the former SS/AA Hemis in SS/AH should be an (elective) choice, not mandatory, since nothing changed about the cars except the newly-mandated class designation.

I was perrplexed, and more than a little bit incensed, to tell the truth.

But, after seeing how this move (to disallow the Hemis in SS/AA) has worked out, with some interesting possibilities developing for SS/AA, and the potential for spme newfound variety in a class that was, from its inception, a one-trick-pony, I have changed my mind.

Why?

At this point, I can't see a single way this rule change was detrimental to anybody.

It looks, for all the world, like a win/win situation, to me. NHRA doesn't seem to get much right these days, but I think they lucked into this one.... They say you can't make everybody happy, but I think everybody involved in splitting this class (and, on both sides iof the split) should be happy about it. I am.

Just my 2-cents...

Bill






.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

There were TWO 1967 L-88 Corvettes from Tennessee. One was from Murfreesboro, owned and driven by Tony Rhodes. The other was from the Nashville area, owned by Scott Wilcox, and often driven by Mike Lynch. Both ran SS/A. Tony Rhodes still has his car, just like it last ran. Not sure where Scott Wilcox's car went, but I'm sure some of the local SS racers like Jimmy Bridges and Kenny Schindler will know.

I was told by an NHRA official that some of the Mopar guys went to NHRA and complained that not enough 1967 L-88 Corvettes were built. NHRA gave the Corvette guys a year to come up with documentation, but GM said only 36 were built and sold in 1967. I think the story is also posted some where on class racer, but I could not find it when I searched for it.

At one time, not long ago, there were at least two, and possibly three, REAL 1967 L-88 Corvettes within 50-100 miles of here. One is of somewhat questionable heritage, but the other two were very real. Seems odd that there would be only 36 built, but two would be within 100 miles of each other. But GM provided documentation for only 36, so that appears to be it.

Back before any real Super Stock cars had run a legal eight second pass in qualifying or competition, there were a couple of articles about the "race to the eights". Mostly there were Hemi cars in the articles, but one article had a side bar featuring Tony Rhodes black SS/A 67 Corvette calling him the "dark horse".

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

you mean these two? notice the lettering on the door of the wilcox car.....interesting.....adam

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...sacorvette.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...e/SSAVETTE.jpg

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I think Noel Davis bought Scott's Corvette some years back. Dad bought Scott's Chevy II in 87 or 88. You can see the back of the Chevy II in the pic above. Must have been prior to Dad purchasing the car. We campaigned it for a few years and then sold it. I believe Tony Rhodes has it now and put an auto in it. I have not seen either of the cars on the track in a few years.

For what it's worth...

Ronnie, Jr.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Tony Jr. does have a 2 door post Chevy II he's running in Super Stock. Tony Sr. still has the Corvette, he's had it for as long as I can remember, I doubt he'll sell it.

I was thinking there were two Chevy II's at one time. And Jimmy Bridges had a SS/E Camaro. They were all painted the same or at least very similar.

I had heard Noel bought the Corvette as well. I don't know. There were several of those cars around here. I think Mike Robinson had two or three, at one time he had a 63 that he ran in F/Gas. And Jimmy has got a 66 he runs in SS/B.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Yep, that would be it, the post car. After thinking about it for awhile, I'm certain Noel bought the Corvette. Looking back at the pic above, that may be after Dad bought the Chevy 2. I see a yellow water spray can and I believe we used to have a yellow one. Memory is not as good as it used to be. Damn, it's been 20 years now:)

I also remember Jimmy's SS/E Camaro as well.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I took the 1st photo at an IHRA race in St Louis quite a few years ago. It was around 1992 or 3. I really dont remember much about the car, other than it was all over the track, and I never seen it run again...

Wade O

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I'm pretty sure that the Chevy II was owned by the Stephens Brothers from TN prior to Wilcox.
Bob Rice

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

That would be Mr. Conway Witten's corvette that you are thinking of.The car was already a very fast super/B car at the time that could outrun some of the hemi cars,somewhere along the line some people where upset about the car being as fast as it was in a lower class and some words were exchanged between Conway and some of the hemi guys.Well all this did was make Conway want to get in the same class with them so he got in the book and dug up a little engine called the LS-7,he then proceeded to let some of them know that next year he would be in the same class as them and that he would have 30 more inches and more compression to boot.Well you can guess what happened next,all hell broke loose and nhra banned the engine from competition.We also built the engine that was in Scotty's car at the time all this was happening.Wade,you said that you took the picture of Scotty's car,is that Kevin Gentry in the background and did you know him?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

over the years the mopar guys have done what ever it took to keep the hemi at the top of the heep [ it is a fine engine design ] however it is not the only engine in the world as most mopar guys think,ever time some one goes out side the box with another combo they cry. the above ls7 vette and t-bolt fords can and have run with them..what was the last hemi ss/aa record and how far off is the vette that holds it now??i am not anti hemi but giving them a single brand class is just gay.allow all brands and open up to more combos,t-bolts,ac cobras etc,now mopar will say they never made enough of them, but i grew up in the muscle car days and i do recall those other cars running the street and tracks,just as many as i seen of the hemi cars.tell ford ace hawk he can build a ac cobra,but tell him it wont run with the hemi..lol

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

10-4 on that Conway Witten, LS-7 RIP!!
I wanted to do a ZR2 a lite weight road race corvette that would run AA, that's when they really started cryibng

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I was under the impression that Jimmy Bridges current SS Corvette was formally the Scott Wilcox car. Can anybody confirm (or deny) that?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Jimmy and I were talking about that a while back, and we were trying to figure out where each car went. I think he'd found out a few things last time we talked, but we were still wondering about a couple of others. Like I said, there were a few of those cars around here, with various owners. I'll see Jimmy at Bowling Green, and I'll ask him. He's a living history book, every time we talk, I learn more, and have more fun.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I was told that this Corvette is the car that Jimmy Bridges races. Don't know who owned it between Traffanstedt and Bridges though. I think the car was owned by Mike Robinson prior toTraffanstedt.
Bob Rice
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...o2061/00RT.jpg

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Aaron, I didnt know who owned the car, or the gentleman you asked about. I was a pit rat at that time. I hadnt finished my Super Stock car yet, so, I was "spying", lol. I have always taken pictures at the track.........

Wade O

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

I'm pretty sure that is Kevin in the background,he was a guy who worked in our shop for a long time and always had a good outlook on life,he died not to long ago.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Instead of showing up for 2-3 days of boring practice, we should line up and run heads up class against class, then index against index. If NHRA doesnt want to organize it, get out our 5-cent CPU's(pencil) and do it ourselves!

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

just a question from a fan.
do any hemi cars other than the 1968 darts and barracudas fit in SS/AA ?
I know about the SS/AH now but are there any other model hemi cars that run in it. thanks, chris

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

How many real HEMI cars were really made available to the public the HEMI guys at like that there was really a little old lady from Pasadena? I bet unless your name was Sox, Landy,or Vanke you couldn't get a smell of one. They were basically concept cars made legal just for drag racing just like Thunderbolts, L-88 and LS-7 Corvette, so really there is no difference. But why should NHRA care now? Chevrolet never made an aluminum open chamber headed 396/375 but it's OK now? Ford never made 428 Cobra Jets with Titanium valves but it's OK now? Ford can be represented by Shelby GT-500s but you can't run a YENKO Camaro of Corvette? Why not make all Muscle Car era cars legal for Super Stock or Stock?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Not all of the hemis went to big time racers.Local good guy (Queens N.Y.) racer George Baptiste has raced one since new.George is now 72 I think and has parked the car.If anyone sees him ask him about the way he concealed the ownership of the car from his wife.George is a real gentleman and a pleasure to talk to about the old days.

Ed F.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

There are exceptions to every thing in life, So!!!! What have you raced? Have you ever had your combination banned by a sanctioning body before? What have you raced? ED? Have you ever worked 16 hours a day 7 days a week on race cars? How many days have you ever gone without sleep working on your race car? I'm sure you have a response.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Oh boy, this will be a doosey.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

You really dont want to get me started.But in the scheme of things in REAL life us drag racers are mearly
a pimple on a mosquitos balls.


Ed F

Where's Ed Obrien when I need him?.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

On a side note,has anyone seen or heard about the 50 new cobrajet mustangs ford is building for A/S,they are supposed to have a supercharged 5.4 rated at 400 hp and weigh 3300 lbs.I agree about all muscle cars being legal for competition also.Can you imagine a shelby cobra in SS/A.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

There is one thats goin to be in SS/A, ever heard of Evan Smith??? He should be done with his car by the end of the year and debut next year

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Stephen and Horace, with all due respect to you as Super Stock racers, when I spoke to Evan at E-town; he said that the car would be ready for the Dutch Classic in late Oct., and that it would be SS/B car as originally reported. I realize that plans can change, if thay have, please advise. As a diehard Ford fan since 1962, I can hardly wait to see this car run.
PS - I am going to Indy and I also can't wait to see Paul Adams and Ray Pacquet with their T-bolts put a hurting on Ralph Porpora and Jimmy Bridges in SS/B.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Sure would be nice to see John Armstrong put a Jerico in his Corvette and run SS/B.
Bob Rice

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

ED......
Let's get you "started" I am sure that you have a lot to say. I ported the heads on both Scotty Wilcox's and Tony Rhodes Corvette's. I made Jim Defrank sell his HEMIs in the 80's and build Chevrolets then he bought me a car to race. I'm sure that you have more insight than any body on this forum. I wished I could have known a "sage" like you when I was racing. Beating people like David Nickens, John Lingenfelter, Craig Liberty and Ron Kriser would have been easier with a "Head" like you.
By the way what is that thing that you have a picture of on your identity, I can't tell, it kind of looks kind of like the car off the Chevy Chase "Vaction" movies? I want to know something, how many of that car did they build? It don't look legal to me? Was it built as a race only or just a show car that was made into a race car by you?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Well you asked for it now I'll reply.I think you had better lay off the Kentucky moonshine you're obviously are downing.All I said in my first post was that all the hemi cars didn't go to high rollers.
I made no reference to anyone in perticular.
As far as my car goes it's a 1977 AMCremlin that has held the R/SA record and currently the T/SA record.That's the Wally on the hood for my win at Atco LODRS in 2006.It says "Powered by Social Security" on the hood.I've had a 2 digit # in NHRA Div. # and currently a 2 digit IHRA #.
Admiditly this year I'm biting the bird,but there's always next year.
Go back and read my post and enlighten me on what made you raid the jug in the barn.
you also seem to be a prolific name dropper. Ed F.

Seeing that you probably are as old as I am or maybe older I strongly suggest you go have a stress test and maybe take an anger management course.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Conway has the Pete Maravich philosophy " It ain't bragging if you can back it up."

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Larry;
I think a course in reading comrpehension would go a long way.

Ed

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Ed....
See how you are now? I said those things to provoke you into seeing how "you" east coast people see us. I will compare pedigrees with you or anybody any time, I am college educated and I have brushed my 3 teeth this week.
In 1975 Bernie Agaman and Claude Urvig ran corvettes out of Ralph Truppi's shop. Bernie had a LS-6 71 Corvette and Claude had a 70 LS-7 Corvette that ran SS/BA. The whole time Claude ran NOTHING was said about a 70 Corvette being legal. He set the record and won class and I''m sure out ran his share of HEMIs. So in 1985 I thought I could do the same thing, after all it had been legal for 15 years at the time, right? But I instantly went fast and beat all of the SS/BAs in class at the US nationals the second time I ran it. Of course nobody knew that I had been on Lingenfelter's dyno, and I knew before it ran it had the power to run fast.
In November I went and set the record in Suffolk VA and by the time Gainesville came around I had already researched running AA with a ZR-2 light weight road race option. I won class and out ran all of the AAs too. The next thing I knew, was all of this banning stuff being told to me, but it had been legal for 15 years, I bled. Chevrolet didn't make enough of them I was told. I thought it was OK for Claude to run one out of Truppi's shop why not me? It was because of where I lived and it made me feel the way that I made you feel.
So that is why it was and still is a very sore subject for me.

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

If you are going to critisize someones grammar, you should at least spell it right. I dont really know conway, but mike pustelney told me we would get along real well. I think he deserves alot of respect for his accomplishments, and as larry said it aint braggin if you can back it up.
A gremlin? are you kiddin me? You are in no position to give anyone a hard time.
cw

http://hemimilitia.com/Index.html

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Charlie,
Thanks for the compliment, I'm making Mike some "water tight" heads. Ed is probably an OK guy for somebody that has a Rambler. Remember those Ramblers that Maskins raced in the 70's? I bet those things had leaky heads?
Also I knew a guy named Joe Williamson that had a 6 piece Boss head brazed into one head by somebody in Detroit. Who up there did those? It wasn't Batten, I was trying to remember. I might contanct them about brazing some super stock heads.
Do you port your own heads?

Re: True Class War: Pros, Cons, and Why
 

Wow now I'm being "straighted out" by Mr. Personality himself.
Look at my 1st post in this thread and tell me where I disrespected Conway.Iv'e seen your cars run and I
have nothing but respect for the way you can build,tune and drive your car.After that is taken into account
it all goes down hill.Unlike you I can count my true friends on more than one digit.You should be happy to get half the compliments on your car as I get on mine.Alot of people can go fast with a hemi.I choose to go fast in a 6 cylinder car.I know I cant go as fast as you but you cant go as fast as a Hemi funny car.
I sincerly hope Bucky kicks your arrogant *** for class at Indy.Goodbye Charlie.............................

Ed F.
aka Taco