Removal of historic monuments
 

With the current call for removal of Southern monuments/statues deemed offensive, I hear today "they" are pushing to eradicate anything affiliated with Christopher Columbus as well. Where does this all end? Lets all bury our heads in the sand and rewrite history to suit everyone's whim. :rolleyes:

Hell, if "they" are really serious all of us should pack our bags and vacate leaving it back in the native's hands. That would at least show some semblance of moral integrity. ;)

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

I'm waiting for NYC to remove FDR's name from history. After all he was racist in his dealings with Japanese citizens during the war.
Remember the saying " Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".
I could sit here all night typing about the things going on in this country but I have a headache already.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

You can't stop graffiti but somehow this is easy and people can get behind it? FCFS!

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Funny how your historical perspective changes in relation to which end of the gun barrel your ancestors were facing.

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Note the key word "ancestors". That was a few generations ago.These monuments are a reminder of our history. Before all the feel good BS these monuments were of no concern to the general public. How far do you want to take this back.
My ancestors were from Spain. Remember Cuba being appropriated by the US in 1898? It's done and buried. You can go on and on with this till the beginnings of civilization. Time moves on, history moves on, but we should never forget these events but try to learn from them.
What's happening here is a group of people trying to jump back into the past to open old wounds to deflect the fact that they feel entitled to be given special advantages without putting in the effort to gain them on a level basis. Never have people given the
OPPERTUNITY to get ahead in life than there has in this country in the pasty 30 years or so. Some chose to do so and some opted to take the handouts.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

"Remember the saying "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"?"

Unless I've forgotten my junior-high social studies lessons, the Spanish-American War started because of the desire of the Cuban (and Filipino) people to gain their independence from an overbearing and cruel Spanish government. (After all, we fought a war for OUR independence a little over a hundred years earlier). That, and the not so small matter of the sabotage and sinking of a US battleship in Havana harbor. I don't need a statue to "Remember the Maine", do I? (And if I did, there's one at Arlington Cemetery, along with memorials to Americans from all of our conflicts)

But that's not what we're really talking about here, is it? It's not really about what's happening with the statues after all -

"What's happening here is a group of people trying to jump back into the past to open old wounds to deflect the fact that they feel entitled to be given special advantages without putting in the effort to gain them on a level basis. Never have people given the
OPPORTUNITY to get ahead in life than there has in this country in the past 30 years or so. Some chose to do so and some opted to take the handouts."

So the recent concern about the statuary and memorials is just a smokescreen for some sinister plot? The "fact" that the majority of these statues were dedicated well after the Civil War ended, coincidentally at or around the same time that "Jim Crow" laws were being passed to disenfranchise a part of our citizenry, isn't a valid reason for us to discuss their relocation? No one is saying that we should forget or ignore our shared history, quite the opposite. I don't think anyone wants to forget that it took us almost 100 years after that war and TWO Acts of Congress to guarantee Equal Rights "under law" to ALL Americans. I know I don't want to forget. And I don't need a statue to help me remember.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

First, they want the statues DESTROYED (they did a good job on a few), not relocated.
Second, The vocal majority don't want a conversation about relocation.
Third, all the support they get comes from liberals who vote and support the party that
were mostly responsible for the Jim Crow era. The Civil RightsAct was fought tooth and nails by southern dixiecrats (but we all know that, old news, let's move on) and the party saw votes in giving blacks (and other minorities) entitlements. They do it to this day. I have no problem giving people a hand up, not a hand out for no return in their ability to better themselves. When scam artists like Al sharpton, Jessie Jackson and all the other leeches are given a platform at their conventions and gatherings it's no wonder they drove moderate democrats away.
I could type all night giving examples where modern day liberalism has done very little to uplift the plight of minorities in this country.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

It's almost impossible to view history by what we know today. You have to view it in the context of what the laws and beliefs were then. The War Between the States wasn't only fought about slavery. But a lot of people today still think that slavery was the only issue. The US Supreme Court case of Dred Scott upheld slavery several years before the war. And years later, the US Supreme Court case of Plessy Vs. Ferguson upheld separate but equal laws, which were what most Jim Crow laws were about (separate bathrooms, drinking fountains, etc.) But the statues and monuments have nothing to do with any of that. They were erected to honor leaders of men who answered the call of duty to defend their states against an invading army from the north. They were erected as a way for southerners to regain some pride after a devastating defeat. Those statues aren't about racism or white supremacy, but the way the liberal mind works they make that leap. I'd bet those same people believe Sherman's March to the Sea was honorable and humane.

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I would have to agree with the above statement. The majority of people nowadays really have no clue about the Civil War other than what Hollywood portrays.

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Your first two sentences make a great deal of sense, which is why it's hard for some people to understand how the past has helped to shape our present.

Slavery not "THE" cause of the war? Not if you believe most contemporaneous writers of the period, including Alexander Stephens, when he authored the "Cornerstone Speech", which most certainly stated that slavery, and it's spreading west, was a very "BIG" part of the call for secession. Chattel slavery was a very large part of the economy down south, after all. And I suppose that President Lincoln's rational to pursue hostilities with the states who seceded after they attacked Fort Sumter was more of an effort to keep the Union in one piece, then to end slavery, at least initially. The "Emancipation Proclamation" came later, and only affected those chattel slaves in the areas not under Union control.

But if, as you say, the statuary and other monuments were erected to help southerners regain some pride after a devastating defeat, why did it take, in some cases, 40 years to emplace them? And why the somewhat coincidental passage of the "Jim Crow" laws to subjugate the part of the southern population that earned the rights of citizenship at the conclusion of that conflict. "Separate", but hardly "equal", and it took 58 years for the SCOTUS to finally get it right.

I suppose it would be an interesting research project to find out what was said, back then, about that period right after the war. Had President Lincoln not been assassinated and had he been able to bring about the ideals he so eloquently stated in his 2nd Inaugural Address -

"With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds."

Maybe we wouldn't be fixated on statues right now.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

I appreciate your concerns. We agree more than disagree. Reread my statement and you will see I did not say that slavery was not the cause. I am well acquainted with Alexander Stephens writings (my paternal grandmother's family). But it was certainly not the only cause. You are correct to say that Lincoln went to war to preserve the union. As I pointed out, federal law was settled on slavery and he would have been in violation of federal law. You can question the correctness of the Supreme Court decision, but that was the precedent at the time. We also agree that the concept of separate but equal was just flat wrong. But men practicing any of those things at the time were, in fact, law abiding citizens. Jim Crow type laws existed in the north too.

You ask why it took so long to erect the statues and monuments? How many people have them erected in their own lifetime? Various towns and organizations such as the United Daughters of the Confederacy erected many of those monuments. At the turn of the century, the children and grandchildren of confederate veterans recognized the need to remember the leaders that written history was leaving out or giving little credit for their leadership. It was merely a southern pride thing. No one complained back then. A lot of those monuments were also dedicated to the thousands of confederate soldiers who died. And believe me, at that time, nearly everyone had a relative who fought in that war. Most of those former confederate generals and leaders were held in high regard after the war by their northern counterparts. Now we're talking about tearing their monuments down?

As for the reconstruction period after the war, I could write a book on my opinions about that corrupt period. I'll just say that living under military occupation caused a whole lot of hatred and mistrust for the US government that lasted for generations. The tax man finished off many families (including some of mine) in the south that barely survived the war.

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lets say we grant you for the sake of argument that some of these statues were erected to honor these people who fought for the south. My family was from Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana. All these states were Union, not southern. why are there statues there.

now lets look at some of the generals that fought for the south during the war. Many were in the army before the war started. They swore an oath that still goes on today, that they will protect this country from both foreign and domestic threats. By definition, these men betrayed that oath, and should have been court marshaled, convicted and shot for sedition. Why would anyone want to honor a traitor?

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

You would have to research the individual erected monument or statue to know why it is there. I do a lot of history and genealogy research and am often surprised how easy some things are to find information on.

Your'e overlooking an important fact. In those days, you held the state you were from in higher regard than the US Government. Your state came first. General Lee struggled with this himself. These officers resigned their US commissions (and therefore their oaths) and joined the confederate army. You may view them as a traitor. But they were heroes in their own day.

You don't have to honor anyone. Just don't tell others who to honor a hundred years after those before us found worthy. You cannot erase history.

You are still trying to view people in history by what we know or feel generations later.

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its not my opinion they are traitors it is matter of fact and military law. They broke the oath of office.

This accusation of us trying to erase history, to be blunt is bull****. There are not statues through out Germany and Austria of the **** leaders and they know their history quite well. There are no statues in France of the people who were in the Vichy government and they know their history.

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You really shouldn't try to compare the American civil war to the atrocities of WWII. These men were not war criminals.

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yes, i can, andersonville was just as bad as any horror in wwii and i did not compare the atrocities at all, I pointed out these people have not forgotten their history. And have we forgotten the war of 182? I have not seen many statues of that war around. And you give this ad hoc answer. I am sorry that logic destroys your position but its not my fault.And resigning a commission and joining a foreign government does not make you any less guilty of sedition. You are still committing treason.

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There are no statues of the men who ran Andersonville. It's ridiculous to think that's what this is about. Have you ever researched the prisoner of war camps in the north and how many died there? That is a bad argument.

I don't know what war of 182 is and probably have not researched it anyway.

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If you want to really get into atrocities consider what was done to the native americans (for lack of a better term).

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I am not the one who brought up horrors during the war you did. And I have not condoned any horror that occurred. And this little dodging of a direct question only shows the weakness in your argument.

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I agree and I have not seen any statues honoring the native americans and we have not forgotten this horror

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I have.

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that is known as a non answer answer. Most places do not have any statues about the Indian horrors. And yet we have a better understanding of the wrongs done to them.

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Not what you said. You said you haven't seen any statues honoring native Americans. I have.

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nice try, most places do not have any. And we have not forgotten thie history. You have no valid argument. Zilch, Nada, nothing. Find another position and defend it.

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I think you are the one that has added zilch, nada, nothing to the conversation. Your'e reasoning is all over the map and almost incoherent. And you make grandiose claims of some kind of victory in the conversation? I think you could have just said that no matter what you say, I will disagree. Quit acting like you want to learn someone else's view when you really don't.

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

i am sorry, you are the one who changed the subject constantly. I kept on the subject of the statues. You tried to conflate other subjects such as the horrors of the civil war which has nothing to do with the statues.

And when asked a direct question, which you still have not answered. Why France and Germany does not forget their history without statues and other wars have not been forgotten because they do not have statues.

Are people who support the south so brain dead that it takes a statue to remember your past?

And a vast majority of these statues were not erected with public funds, but by groups such as the sons of the confederacy and the daughters of the confederacy during the early part of the 20th century. And both groups were very much behind supporting the jim crow laws. You would have actually had this knowledge if you really did some research. You can your own opinion but you can't have your own alternative facts

Re: Removal of historic monuments
 

Go back and read! I responded to YOUR questions and flawed comparisons. Do you really have to ask why there are no statues of the war criminals from **** Germany? How many statues of confederates who were charged and convicted with war crimes are there? You are the one who tried to compare Andersonville to WWII atrocities when I tried to point that out. Go back and read! I don't understand how you ever took that giant leap to even bring it up. There are no comparisons here.

By your logic, the whole country is brain dead if they need a statue or monument to honor a person. Lincoln Memorial, Washington Memorial, etc. Tear them all down. Their not needed because David Lee said so.

Your now trying take another giant liberal leap to say a statue should be taken down because law abiding citizens who happened to live in the south during the era of Jim Crow erected them? Ever hear the saying "Your'e grasping at straws"?

I apologize to all who read this for allowing myself to bother responding to this guy this long.

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These are not false comparisons at all. And again you are trying to conflate to sesperate issues. In logic, you address one issue at once and not mix in other issues. We are talking about statues and the idea of taking them down would mean people would forget their history.

No, you brought up the idea of horrors in the civil war. not me.

"You really shouldn't try to compare the American civil war to the atrocities of WWII. These men were not war criminals.
__________________
Blue lives matter"

I brought up the p[eople ion Germany and france not having any statues and not forgetting their history. I never mentioned any war crimes.

This is known as a strawman argument

"By your logic, the whole country is brain dead if they need a statue or monument to honor a person. Lincoln Memorial, Washington Memorial, etc. Tear them all down. Their not needed because David Lee said so"


People remember the actions of Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln without any memorial. We learned about them in our schools in something called a history class. As we learned about the civil war. A statue can not in any way teach history. Most Americans will never go to Washington DC and see these memorials.



And when pointed out that these were put up by people that supported the Jim Crow laws, you go ballistic. This is not a liberal or conservative issue. There are conservatives that believe these should be brought down. And history also has recorded why these statues were erected, And no matter how much excuses you put up, you can't change the facts.

And again, you refused to answer my initial question. Why do you need a statue to remember your history? And the one question you never asked is what my position on the statues is. You automatically assumed that every statue in every town come down. And that is wrong.