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Another dummy question. Why do stick GT cars sometimes get less hp than auto GT cars, when using the exact same engine ?
Is this a common NHRA practice ? I'll use the popular Stocker '77 400 engine as an example. This page shows 5hp less for stick GT cars, than auto GT cars. http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac While mentioning stick cars. Does anybody know of any Pontiac V8 powered stick GT cars, either current or former ? |
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OK, ya'll gonna have to help me with this one.
As of the 2019 season, I assume that the 3 quickest Pontiac powered GT cars belong to Robert Cruzen, Todd Frantz, & Don Kennedy. We know Robert has gone 8.90's. At the US Nats, Todd & Don both went 9-teens. And I suppose Don has the quickest car with both a Pontiac engine & body, since the other 2 mentioned are Cobalts. If others are quicker, ya'll please post that info. What other Pontiac powered GT cars are planned to debut this season, if any ? Just guessing that with the success of the 428 GT cars, there might be other converts. I suppose this is especially tempting to non-Pontiac guys, since the alum head 428 can now be built without any Pontiac factory parts. As always, correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Again I'll ask for purpose built Pontiac powered GT cars, that haven't been mentioned. I wasn't keepin up with racing during the '90's & early 2000's. So, there must have been some other decent GT cars.
Even lookin at the DRC nat event records from 1998-up, I can't tell exactly which GT cars may have had Pontiac power. I know that the Hatari 4th gen is probably the most famous, because of all that Peter Biondo did with it. But there were probably other good ones built, that very few know about. |
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At the 2011 US Nats both cars are listed. the GT/AA car was #25, & the GT/DA car was #134, listed as a '90 Bird. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop At the '13 US Nats there is a GT/CA car listed as an '87 Bird. It's #85. The Bird in my pics has the earlier nose on it. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2013#indextop |
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When I first noticed this 3rd gen GT car, it belonged to Vic Santos. Ran strong.
I'm also posting a Q-list showing the car #1. Bill Kennedy bought it. |
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Behind the Hatari car, who knows which is the winningest Pontiac V8 powered GT car ?
Anybody know which cars have won the most nat events. And the most div races ? And the most smaller races ? |
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Now I'm gonna need a LOT of help with these old Pontiacs, from guys old enuff to remember those days.
Back around 1961-'62, NHRA came up with some classes which I assume are early versions of the Super Stock class. They had various class designations. One of the most famous may be the FX classes. I believe it was in '62, when Mickey Thompsons A/FX Tempest won both the Winter Nats & the US Nats. https://www.dragzine.com/news/drag-r...ac-lemans-afx/ Near as I can tell, the FX class allowed factory engines to be used in car models they did not come in. An example is a Pontiac 421SD engine, in a Tempest. Don't know exactly what mods, if any were allowed to the engine. That class sounds to me to be similar, in some ways to the modern day GT SS classes. If anybody here can give exact details of the early FX rules, please do so. Hayden Profit was driving M/T's Tempest at the '62 Winter Nats. They actually had the car marked FX/A. Lloyd Cox drove it at the US Nats. The car won the class at both races. Anybody wanna see some old rules ? https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2006u57wp...myEgvaR8KYSowa http://www.mre-books.com/ct953/superstock1962.html https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...per-duty-quick It seems that '61 & '62 were important years in SS history. https://www.facebook.com/FCRMotorspo...0684906992287/ https://www.hotrod.com/articles/fact...ental-detroit/ Pontiac was still a player in the A/FX class in '63. |
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In '61-'62, there were several classes that I assume could be called Super Stock. A few of these were: S/S, OS/S, SS/A, S/SA, A/SS, B/SS, N/SS.
Pontiac had competitive cars in all these classes. |
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Another class that would probably be closer to today's SS class would the real early MP classes. I noticed that several of the same type cars that were running A/FX were running A/MP.
Modified Production Obviously, the high rpm small cube sbc 2x4 tunnel ram equipped MP cars were something altogether different. |
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Arnie Beswick ran cars in lots of classes, including A/SS & B/SS.
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...-man-standing/ https://www.arniebeswick.com/bio.htm https://www.hotrod.com/articles/arni...mate-underdog/ |
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Just snagged this pic off Don Kennedy's FB page.
He said it had an SD455 engine. Would love to have pics & info of more Pontiac powered GT cars I haven't mentioned. When I saw that pic was taken at the Winston Finals , I decided to take a look at the DRC results of the Finals in Pomona. Saw it listed at the Winter Nats, in '98. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop Also listed at the Phoenix nat event. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop I did see that John Angeles ran a 9.753 in his '69 RAIV Bird, in 2010. Assume it's the quickest reg(non GT) SS car, except for the Clegg's SD455 Birds. Could be wrong. Right now those are the only 3 cars I know of that have run in the 9's. Would welcome info of others. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2010#indextop |
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Got some more pics from Don Kennedy's FB page.
Good pics of his SD455 '73 Bird. Also an interesting pic of his 3rd gen GT car. There's another 3rd gen GT car in the near lane. Norman Warling said that was his brother Carroll in that car. But, the div 5 number is not the one on his SS cars. Just curious as to when that pic was made, who the white car belonged to, was it Pontiac powered, did it ever race & when, & who drove it in competition ? |
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"...Carrol's car was built by him and later sold to Rich Ahrens, Carrol's car had a Pontiac motor in it when he owned it..."
Specific questions: (1) Did Carroll ever drive the car in competition , & if so, when ? (2) Did he enter it in any national events ? (3) What kind of times did it turn ? Thanks for all the info guys ! :) |
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Here's a good article about Bob Michael.
https://dragillustrated.com/life-lon...al-to-pontiac/ Bob has not only had several Stockers, but also some Super Stockers. I'd love to have more info of all his competitive cars & the div & nat events they've won. Since results from the old races are hard to come by, I always like to see them. In that article, he mentions that he won the Spring Nats, with the '73 SD car. He got the car in '77. So, I assume the race was either in '77 or '78. He also got RU at another nat event, later that same year. He also mentioned the '77 SS Bird, Said he won 2 div races with it. |
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Bob also won SuperStock 5 years in a row when the Fall Classic was held at Edgewater.
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This was not a quick car. But it did run below it's index. Jay Cason was the driver.
The reason I'm posting it is because I've mentioned that I have seen very few 1967 GTO Stockers or Super Stockers listed. In fact, this may be the very 1st '67 SS GTO I've seen listed. Don't know what it's best ET was. But it ran a 10.64 at Pomona. Assume it used the same engine combo as Randi Lyn's '67 Bird Stocker. And I know she has run some 10:30's, in Stock legal form. So, I see no reason why a Super Stock version of her engine would not run low 10's in a '67 GTO. Don't really expect anybody to build one tho. That body style is not exactly aerodynamic. Anyhow, does anybody have any pics or other info about this car, or any '67 SS GTO ? He qualified below his index at Pomona, Phoenix, & Sonoma, in 1998. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=30914 |
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OK, I've listed lots of Stocker wins & other race results.
So, I'll start with the DRC records from 1998, lookin for Pontiac SS wins & other results. I assume these will be very scattered, since there have been far fewer Pontiacs running SS, than stock. Have already mentioned the US Nats. So, I won't include any of those results, again. If ya'll see a Pontiac powered GT car qualified above those I mention, on a Q-list, or in elimination results, please let me know. I don't know all the GT cars that had Pontiac power, especially if they were racing more than 5 years ago. At the '98 Winter Nats, Don Kennedy was #17, with his 3rd gen GT Bird, & Keri Angeles was #20, with her '69 Bird. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At Phoenix, Don was #15, & Sal Biondo was #16, in an '82 Bird. So, was that the Pontiac powered Phil Monteith 3rd gen Hatari Bird ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At this Houston race, J.B. Clegg was #42 on the list. The only reason I mention it, is because that is suppose to the former H-O Racing Specialties nat record holder '74 SD455 T/A. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At this Rockingham race, Johnny Duncan is #4 @ - 1.022, in an '82 Bird. So, was it Pontiac powered ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop OK, on this Farm Nats list is what I assume is the 400 Pontiac powered 4th gen Hatari car, driven by Peter Biondo. The Vic Santos 3rd gen is also on the list, along with Ken Shawver's '78 T/A. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At this TX race, J.B. turned a 10.747. I noticed that SS/KA had an index which was slightly quicker that the nat record the H-O car had set, in '77. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop Carroll Warling was #6, at the Mile-High Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At Sonoma, looks like Keri Angels & Jay Cason had the only Pontiac powered SS cars there, UNLESS Bob Bales '92 Firehawk had Pontiac power. I think you guys said that only his '73 SD455 Bird was Pontiac powered, correct ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop Jay Cason got RU ! Hey, that ain't bad. One of the slowest qualifiers was RU to the #1 qualifier. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At the Keystone Nats, Ken Shawver, Peter Biondo, & Vic Santos got their class wins. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop At the Houston race, J.B. ran the '74 Bird in SS/JA, & went 10.528. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop Well, in '98, there were some Pontiac powered SS cars that ran good enuff to win races. But, I didn't find any winners. Jay Cason came close, with his '67 GTO. While lookin for pics of J.B.'s car when it ran an auto trans, I found this pic. It shows a '73 GP that John Clegg ran. It was a feature car in the H-O newsletter. Article says it could run a 400, a D-port 455, or the round port SD455. Although the SD455 never came in anything but a '73-'74 Bird, apparently, NHRA has always allowed it, in other body styles, also. http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2080 |
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1999
At the Winter Nats, Bob Bales '92 Firehawk is shown in GT/AA. So, I assume it either had a big Pontiac, or a BBC engine. Can anybody settle this, for sure ? Did this car have Pontiac power, or not ? Also on the list is Keri Angeles, and Art Peterson with his '69 GTO, as well as Bruce with his 3rd gen. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Don Kennedy was RU at this Stock/SS combo race in Tucson. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At the nat event in AZ, Don was #14 @ -.869. Keri was right behind @ -.866. Ryan Bales is listed driving the Firehawk, & Bruce is #40. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At Houston, J.B. Was #12 @ -.787. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At the gators, Peter was #37 @ -.944. Ken was#51 @ -.877. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Back to Houston, J.B. was #27 @ -.838. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Up to Ennis, & J.B. was #10 @ -.737. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At the Pennzoil Nats, Peter was #16 @ -.965. Sal Biondo was driving a '92 GT/IA Bird. Pontiac power ?. Sal Piacentini listed with a SS/MA '77 Bird. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Peter won it ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At Englishtown, Peter was #12@ - 1.068. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Sal Biondo beat Peter in the qtr final, & won the race. So, somebody tell me if Sal's car had Pontiac power. If not, I'll edit this out. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop I think the pics below say that Sal Biondo won his 1st Nat event, in a 2nd gen T/A, at Englishtown, in 1990. I think that's Phil Monteith standing beside Sal. I assume that Phil is responsible for most, if not all the Pontiac power the Biondo clan raced. Not sure. Anybody know how the Biondo family got hooked up with Phil ? |
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1999 contd.
At the Pontiac Excitement Nats, Peter was #15 @ -.795. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Stacy McCarty was on the Q-list at the Craftsman Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Peter won this FMDRS series event, in N.Y. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At Bristol, Peter was #1 @ -.987. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Peter also won this race. Hey, if you're #1 AND win, that's a pretty good race, huh ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At Sonoma, Keri was #18 @ -.777. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At the Keystone Nats, Peter was #12 @ -.953. Ken Shawver was #30 @ -.807. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Peter won this one ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop At the Finals, Keri was #24 @ -.783. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop Well, looks like this was the year Peter Biondo emerged as a Pontiac powered SS winner. The pic below shows Peter in the winners circle for winning a FMDRS race in VA, in '99. |
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I've always read that the SD455 engines were only available in '73 & '74 Birds. I especially remember that a car mag had already pronounced the SD455 GTO as their Car of the Year, on the cover. But, the GTO was supposedly never offered with the SD455 as an option. But, if a GP came off the assembly line with one, I suppose it's not unreasonable to think that a Lemans, GA, or GTO may have, also. As mentioned, NHRA allows the SD455 in several body styles. "...The legendary 310-horse SD 455 engine was planned as an option for the Grand Am and GTO but remained exclusive to the Trans Am. A Grand Am in Pontiac’s official promotional photos, painted Desert Sand, showed SD-455 callouts on the front fenders..." As most know, the 310hp version was never released. But the 290hp version came in both T/A & Formula models. So, IF somebody did buy a factory produced SD455 car, that was not a Firebird, it is indeed a VERY rare car, as mentioned. Posted in a Hot Rod mag article: "...Restricted Duty The SD-455 was originally scheduled to be offered in several Pontiac models, including the Grand Prix and Le Mans/GTO. The EPA-driven production delays squashed those plans, as Pontiac focused on certifying the engine solely for the F-Body platform. That didn’t stop one magazine, however, from prematurely declaring the Super Duty–powered 1973 GTO its Car of the Year..." https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...ar-that-wasnt/ |
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"...Phil Szupka, an east coast "hitter" but seemingly forgotten in this Pontiac history lesson..."
Since his name has been broght up twice in the thread, I decided to Google him & see what turned up. Seems he was voted into the div 1 hall of fame. Also said he raced Pontiacs til he quit driving. https://classracer.com/magazine/?p=4268 From the small pic in that article, it appears to be a '74 or earlier T/A. Can't see the front or the rear. Has "Pontiaction" on the door. OK, here's more info. This pdf of an H-O newsletter not only has the Clegg SD455 GP on the cover, but, on page 5, also mentions that Phil beat Fred Moore for the SS win at a big race at Maple Grove. Says Phil's car was the former Herslow & Morlock Bird. http://missiongarage.com/photogaller...t-nov-1977.pdf I don't suppose there are many online records of his driving accomplishments. At least I haven't found much. |
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"...Butch DiLorenzo, 39, of Queens, N.Y., has been a professional racer since he was 18. His 1986 Pontiac Grand Am has reached 141 miles an hour in 9.50 seconds..." Anybody with more info/pics of Phil Szupka or Butch DiLorenzo & their Pontiac powered racing, please post that info. In this article, Sal Biondo refers to Butch as their uncle. https://www.biondoracing.com/documents/di79.pdf This Bird Has Dilorenzo Racing on the side. |
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Johnny Duncan wouldn't run anything but a Pontiac engine in that car was a 4006x. Also set record
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OK, I'll continue now, combing thru the DRC archives, searching for Pontiac SS info. This will be for 2000. Hard to believe that was 20 years ago.
At Pomona, Keri Angeles was #21 @ -.851, with a 9.999 ET. That's a 400 powered non-GT SS Pontiac. I've read that was the first one to dip into the 9's. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop Keri also got RU at this race. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At Phoenix, Keri was #29 @ -.825. Don Kennedy was #31 @ -.815. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the Gators Peter was #27 @ -.970. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At this VA race, Peter was #12 @ - 1.120. Wilbert Thornton was #57 @ -.773, with his SS/KA '74 T/A. Also, Dean Ribeiro had a '85 Bird. Since Dave is a Pontiac guy, I was wondering if dean may have run Pontiac power in that car. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the Southern Nats, Peter was #22 @ -.954. Sal Biondo shows up on some of these lists with both 3rd & 4th gen Birds. So, who knows which Sal Biondo Birds were Pontiac powered ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop Peter won it ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop That gets us thru May. There were some of these Pontiacs that qualified in the middle or lower part of the field, at some races, which I didn't report, since they didn't get even to the semi, during elims. There were LOTS of 3rd & 4th gen GT Birds on these lists, at almost every race. But I have no way of knowing which may have had Pontiac power. I assume that 99 % or more had Chevy power. |
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2000 cont'd.
Peter won this FMDRS race ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the Pontiac Excitement Nats, Peter was #21 @ -.751. Bob Michael was near the bottom, with his SS/MA '77 Bird. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At Bristol, Peter was #8 @ -.919. Wilbert was also on the list, as was Sal Biondo. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the Mile High Nats, Carroll Warling was #12 @ -.907. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop Peter won this FMDRS race ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At Sonoma. Keri was #14 @ -.851, with another 9.999 ET. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At Topeka, Billy Ingels was #25 @ -.871. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the Auto Zone Nats, Peter was #18 @ -.906. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop And Peter won another Nat ! I'd be very interested in knowing how many races he won, where he had the only Pontiac powered Super Stocker entered. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop At the finals. Peter was #21 @ -.909. Keri was #38. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop For 2000, Peter was National & div 1 SS champ ! That's cool ! :cool: https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop https://us.motorsport.com/nhra/news/...mpion/1854365/ |
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2001
At the div 7 FMDRC series opener, Don Kennedy was #24 @ -.817. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop At the Gators, Peter was #19 @ - 1.008. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop At the O'Reilly Nats, he was #19 @ - 1. 016. Because Peter won so many races, & qualified well at so many races, I'll try not to keep posting his qualifying numbers, unless he's at least a sec under. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop After rain rescheduled the race, Peter won the Gators, with a perfect light, in the final ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop At the 2nd FMDRS div 1 race, besides Peter, Sal Piacentini was entered with his '77 Bird, & Sal Biondo with his '92 Bird. Somebody may have already answered this question. But I wanna get it straight. Because the Biondo family has raced so many different kinds of cars, was THIS particular '92 Pontiac powered, or not ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop Peter won the race ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop He also picked up the SS All Star win. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop Well, this is a shorter post, but get's up thru June. Peter is having another good year. I assume that he has, by far, the most Pontiac powered SS wins of anybody. |
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2001 cont'd
Peter & both Sal's were also in this FMDRS div 1 event 5 race. Peter won ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop He also div 1 event 6 ! https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop I'll put this on the Pontiac Stocker thread. But, thought I'd mention it here. Peter pulled off a Stock/SS sweep at this race. And it was also a Pontiac sweep, since he was driving the Biondo '78 Bird, in Stock ! :) https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop Peter actually left too soon & had to settle for RU, at the Autozone Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop Peter won the Pep Boys Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop At this Indy FMDRS race, Ken Shawver won, with a perfect light ! :) https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop When you look at Peter Biondo's career racing stats, they are almost super human. Not all his winning cars had Pontiac power. But some did, including his nat & div champ SS cars. |
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2002
Lucas Oil began sponsoring the div races this season. Peter Biondo began the season with a win in Fla. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop Peter won the Spring Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop Sam Biondo won the Super Nats. Appears that he was driving the Hatari Bird at this race, maybe ?. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop Peter was RU, at the Lucas Oil Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop He was #22 @ - 1.055. Now I need some help. Both Sam & Peter are shown at this race driving 2000 Birds. So, were BOTH these Birds Pontiac powered ? And how about Sal Biondo's '91 Bird ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop Peter was RU at the Craftsman Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2002#indextop That wraps up 2002. DRC stopped posting results of the div races, as far as I could find. Looks like the Biondo family did all the SS winning, for Pontiac power, at the nat event level. Saw Sal Piacentini & Ken Shawver on a couple of Q-lists. Don't know what happened at all the div races, opens, & other SS races. |
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2003
OK, Peter got RU at the Gators. But check out the lights for the other guy: .001, .002, .007, & .008. You can win some races with RT's like that. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop Peter also got his GT/FA class win. And Sam Biondo got RU for his GT/GA class win. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop Sam's car, & Peter's car were both listed as 2000 Firebirds. Both had real similar performance. So, I ask again, were BOTH these cars Pontiac powered ? Was one car a sort of a clone of the other, with BOTH having Phil Monteith Pontiac power ? Anybody here know for sure ? https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop Peter won the Jegs All-Stars race, in SS. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop Peter got RU, at the Fall Nats. https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop That's all I could find. Looks like the Biondo family did not enter as many races that year. |
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Peter Biondo and Phil Monteith have raced Pontiacs and They have won more races of all time /Peter as the driver and Phillip as the owner .way to go Phil and Peter
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