Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Welcome to the "dark side" (NHRA). I wouldn't assume you should have waited, were I in your position. NHRA has not even mentioned that they are considering allowing crate motors. At least not that I've seen or heard, anywhere, unofficially, or officially.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

LOL......That made my day !

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

To all concerned:

I've read this thread from the beginning and it has gotten away from the intended path, but that is good. I understand most of the comments and see validity in most of them. The one thing that I don't agree with is the word SPEC being misused. When your racing organization publishes what pistons can be used, the size of the rings and location of ring lands, what rods can be used, what size your combustion chamber must not excced, how much stroke can be ground into your crank and how much lift your cam can be. Thats not all of it but I think you might get what I am saying. If that is not SPEC then what is? Seems to me the last stocker engine built here had "SPECS' for many things. If it didn't then we would all build engines with unlimited amount of internal modifications for hauling *** to beat the other racer. Sounds like with no "SPECS" that Stock Eliminator could turn into "My wallet is bigger than yours" Eliminator. Just an observation.

Respectfully Submitted,

Steve Williams

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

[QUOTE= NHRA has not even mentioned that they are considering allowing crate motors. At least not that I've seen or heard, anywhere, unofficially, or officially.[/QUOTE]

NHRA did back when IHRA first adopted the crate motor concept but as usual they would have made it more expensive by requirining a NEW current year spec body (rolling chassis) and a spec. "CRATE" engine. IE: 302 in a new T-Bird, etc. I bet you guys are glad that didnt happen.

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Gezzzzz......I thought it has been that way for years ????????

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

XTECH,

LMAO! You have a good point! It has been to an extent that way in some classes, I not going to mention them to protect the names of the guilty, but you are correct.

Steve

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Crate MoPar's in NHRA. The Nascar Hemi with the short or long track intake, any carb that will fit under the hood and aluminum heads.
See there is a place for Crate Motor "Bracket Cars" in NHRA Stock Class!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

>>>>>"If that is not SPEC then what is?"

Read the rule book section on cylinder heads used on a Top Fuel motor. NHRA dictates LOTS of specifications that cannot be varied from. There is no Rat Motored car in Top Fuel, no wedge combustion chambers, and no variation on the type and size of superchargers that are allowed in that class.
It is a "SPEC class. I. E., the "specififications" that are legal for that entire class of cars are spelled out for you, and if you want to run a car in that class, you build what they dictate. Period.

"Ingenuity in Action," which USED to be one of NHRA's favorite mottos, died in its sleep, and was quietly shoved under the carpet many years ago.

In Stock, they do dictate some specifications as to what is allowable for YOUR chosen motor, such as what constitutes a "legal" valve job... (along with other across-the board rules that don't, as far as I'm concerned, qualify the cars as "spec" cars because they can be performed on any car you want to run; a Chevy, Mopar, Ford, AMC, etc....)

If they said, All Stock Eliminator cars have to run 23-degree heads, " THAT would be a "SPEC CAR" type of ruling

I guess the best example I can think of RE: SPEC cars, is the NASCAR "Car of Tomorrow" that has no room for individuality in the engineering left to perform; it has "SPEC" everything, no matter whether it's a Toyota, Chevy, or, whatever. "Cookie Cutter Car" comes to mind....

NHRA Stock Eliminator has always dictated specifications for the individual (Stockers) cars, and those cars have maintained their mechanical autonomy (at least, to a large extent), because the bulk of the "specs" they must adhere to are the specifications that are pertinent only to that very car. Not a whole lot in the rule book that's trying to make a Street Hemi and a Pinto W/SA car into the same vehicle.

That is my own, personal conception of the term "SPEC" car....

Your mileage may vary. :)

Bill

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I agree with Ken's original premise as it is all bogus replacement parts anyway, so what is the difference? Even the legitamate combos have things like 10-30 too many ccs or 50 HP off the ratings....or three different dyno standards done at different times in automotive history.

It is like my favorite philosophical argument when you start replacing boards on a wooden boat. After you have upgraded a board with new and better wood, is it still the same boat? So, eventually you replace all the boards, is that still the same boat? Many always say yes.....then we forgot to tell we saved all the old boards and put it all together just like the original boat was (back to showroom). Slower, less comfortable, not quite as nice as the "replacement boarded boat", but up to 100% of the original specifications. So if the "replacement" boat is still the same boat, then what is this one we brought back?

It is this kind of the scenario required to unjustiably two intake runner cc lists...one for S and one for SS, but equally perposterous. I know that if they allow crate motors in, will they allow the original crate motors like SOHC's, Tunnel Ports, angle plugged LT-'s, ZL-1's, 429 Boss-8V?
__________________

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Thanks Oddly enough I remember back when the NHRA bounced people for the wrong heater control knobs, literally, now you have 72 Novas masqurading as 69's and nobody whines. Or now we have front wheel drive conversions... but somehow a motor that has specifications from GM that can be checked just like any other combination is not acceptable?
Tod

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

And i thougth you would name a couple of FoMoCo products,,

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This thread got me to thinking. Why is the only small block Ford Crate motor with specs, not on the list of accepted motors? Why are the specs on the 4 that are listed not published for someone to see? I'm not an IHRA member, due to living on the left coast so this is just a question at this time. I don't believe the 4 listed engines have been available, as assembled motors, for quite some time.

Fred

P.S. If IHRA came west I would be intrested in racing in their program.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I hope somebody can answer your question,but sorry I can't help you.One question that I do have about crate motors is that it has been brought up earlier in this thread that the H/CM class is a 9.5 horsepower to weight class.D/SA is also a 9.5 horsepower to weight class.I was just wondering why the index is 12.00 in H/CM and 11.85 in D/SA?How are the factors of these crate motor engines determined and why the difference in the index?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

The difference in index was to allow for racers to build a crate combo on a budget and be able to run the index.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Drag racing affirmative action.

Ed F.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Do you think that a 350/340HP crate motor would run with a 396/325HP? I don't think so.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

What I have been thinking about this situation (index differences) all along:

When nine or ten of the top 10 qualifiers are crate motor cars and they're accross the board; it's not the HP factors being soft as much as it's the indexes being soft..

Why should the 9.5 lb. stock index and the 9.5 lb. crate motor index not be the same?

And LNorton, your explanation of why they are different is totally out in left field.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Crate motor classes were started as an outlet for racers to be able to build a car and compete in stock on a low budget. So in order to make it easier for newcomers to get under the index and race on Sunday the indexes started off soft. You may think I am out in left field on this one...

When I was running pure stock I was told those indexes were soft and were gonna get hit 2 tenths.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Lee,

Any thought of a crate motor class being a budget class is a misconception. How can it cost any less to build a first class crate motor car than a first class regular stocker?

That may have been the original thought but it has progressed far beyond that now.

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Well, I will tell you all this. Whining about it on a message board really doesn't do anything. If you want changes, you need to be writing letters.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

One of the advantages of a crate motor is that you do have more options than with a regular Stocker. Holley carbs are plentiful and it seems that more people know how to work on them without having to go to a "specialist". Any unmodified, commonly available aftermarket aluminum intake can be used. IHRA also allows aftermarket roller rockers. Some combos need durability help while others don't. But bottom line is that you don't have to search junkyards hoping to find specific part numbers hoping they are still usable or paying a premium for parts that are.

While it may not add up to a big savings when compared to a fully prepped Stocker engine, it makes it easier and more economical to get it under the index when people are trying to get into class racing to begin with. There will always be a pretty big range of what people can put into it, in IHRA as well as NHRA. But that "range" is needed to get people involved and keeping the class alive. At least it is in IHRA where it saved the class from extinction. The really fast racers can still strut their stuff in qualifying, class run-offs or heads-up runs. But at least the little guy can play too, unlike NHRA where you have to jump through hoops and still not be sure if you can even qualify at a national event because of grading points, limited fields or despite a decent run under the index.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

OK i understand "the noble idea" of getting cost down..but if there is room to "play hard ball" and go all out and use that .15 or whatever..that my be one of the reasons "crossover" is so poor..sorry i just cant see it happening in NHRA whitout actually loosing carcounts in the end..same as IHRA..just cant see that alot of the current NHRA racers would be happy in a "runwhatyabrung" bracket race..i may be wrong ofcourse..

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

The index difference doesn't even affect the traditional class cars. It isn't like a D/SA car and an H/CM car actually run heads up...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I'm a fan of the crate motor cars, and what the index affects is qualifying, the guys with the fast stockers don't seem so fast when you look a qualifying sheet that shows crate cars running a bit further under, not a lot though. The indexes where already hit 2 tenths a couple years agos, maybe time for 1 more becuase as it's been said the cost effectiveness of crate motor is gone, but the convenience is still there.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

>> When nine or ten of the top 10 qualifiers are crate motor cars and they're accross the board; it's not the HP factors being soft as much as it's the indexes being soft..

You must also consider the cars that are included in that qualifying list, and the percentage of types of classes competing. As has been pointed out earlier, throw the crate motors against the standard NHRA LODRS qualifying field, and things would look very different.

>> Why should the 9.5 lb. stock index and the 9.5 lb. crate motor index not be the same?

I've used that line of thought in terms of combining sticks & autos... that gets the NHRA guys in an uproar! LOL Theoretically, if the HP factors are correct, all classes could be based on weight factors alone rather than Stick, Auto, Truck, FI, FWD, CM, PS, GT, or what have you... but many will rationalize why that can't be done. In any case, it's an interesting mental gymnastics exercise. ;)

>> Any thought of a crate motor class being a budget class is a misconception. ... That may have been the original thought but it has progressed far beyond that now.

I agree. You "can" do it on a budget, but if you want to be "fast", you're going to spend money, regardless of class.

Lee - nobody's "whining". We're having a discussion.

>> just cant see that alot of the current NHRA racers would be happy in a "runwhatyabrung" bracket race..

Good thing that's not what it is! It'd help if people quit propagating that incorrect assertion.

$.02,

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

a "runwhatubrung" bracket race......let me see here.....last time i checked Crate Motor engines are built the same way traditional stocker engines are built....byt a freakin rule book......IHRA as well as NHRA have rules on building motors.....if your saying IHRA is that type of race what makes NHRA so different....there are cars that run .3 to .5 under and cars that run -1.0 under in NHRA whats the difference between that and IHRA cars being a crate motor or traditional motor.....we built our engine the same way you built your engine with a rule book telling us what we could and couldn't do to the motor...same way your engine got built....so if anyone is runnnig this so called "runwhatubrung" its everyone...i hate that saying its not like the local bracket start tolled in with his 85 mustang with a 396 chevy bb in it and raced......these motors are built by rules weather fallowed or not thats for someone else to figure out......

thats my .02

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

What i meen is not that the cars or engines isnt built by a rule book or similar..just the wide range of cars and combos compeeting..really making it a ´bracket race" instead of a classrace...i still think that this has to do with more bracket oriented racers just "wanting in" than anything else..guy's that really wanna do NHRA-racing builds or get something allowed overthere..because those cars can run IHRA too!

mr LNorton...I am not that stupid! but why should they have an extra .15..and maybe as some say soft ratings too?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Some people are saying NHRA needs crate motor cars because of car counts. I looked today and the winternationals looks pretty full to me in S/SS. I haven't raced at an NHRA event yet(I will in April at Dallas if work allows). I have spectated at numerous D4 races and I can tell you alot more guys turn out in S/SS at those races than the IHRA races I have raced in D4. I don't know about the rest of the country.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

>> i still think that this has to do with more bracket oriented racers just "wanting in" than anything else

Actually, a large number of the crate motor guys are primarily class racers. While there are some die-hards like me, Macy, Southards, that will race anything anytime anywhere, there are many others that rarely if ever bracket race.

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come on mike i thought i did good enough to be classified as a bracket racer now....lol....put about 357 on the ole crate this year...not bad

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I don't think NHRA needs crate motors for car counts. That's why they are doing everything they can to limit fields and make it difficult to participate in Stock. Interestingly enough, they have "borrowed" most other IHRA classes - Top Sportsman, Pro Mod, Top Stock, I think they tried something with bikes....I'm sure there is more.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Get outta here! :eek: Man, I only made 222 runs on the Volare last year. Sounds like you were busy when I was out on the road! ;) ...although I haven't counted up runs on the Mirada yet.

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Is there a lot of "Class run offs" in IHRA? didn't know they had that..you learn every day..

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yeah mike, sometimes a night at the ole roxboro can lead to about 15 or 16 rounds...... we did a lot in 08 running footbrake and combos on the same night

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I have a lot of friends in NHRA and IHRA also, but most of the Nh guys won't run Ih. There are many factors involved, time off from work and travel probably being the main ones. Choose where you want to race and support them, whether it be IHRA, NHRA ,NMCA or whatever and you go by the rules allowed. So quit the bitchin, get off the computer and go to work on your car. Hope everyone has a successful year racing.
Mark

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Stock Class Eliminations will be featured during the Nitro Jam events at State Capitol, US 131 and Maryland

Super Stock Class Eliminations will be featured at the Nitro Jam events at State Capitol, Grand Bend and Maryland

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Mike, do class loosers still run elimiations in IHRA? Used to be, if you lost class at a national event you went home. NHRA changed that. Don't know why.

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IHRA runs class starting on the second Qual. run....if you win that round you run untill you lose in class.....2,3,or so rounds later.....if you lose first round in class you still get to run the natl. race....i think after second round of class they quit giving you reaction times 60ft, and so on...i think all you get is your ET and MPH.....

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Thanks Brandon!

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Very well said. I get so tired of these guys harking about the CM Class cars. Im all for it and I as well have one that Im putting together a motor for. My car ran in as a G\CM car in its day, now Im the new owner bringing it back to the track as the same.