Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

The lighter weight guy with almost as much power as the heavier vehicle?

Maybe even a Ford?

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

^^^^^^^ Are you speaking of "creative writers cramp" Mr Bill (Pop up piston) Hawk?

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Now that you've mentioned him, he can be a formidable challenger.

Never mind about the combination and the attendant components.

Still other FE competitors remain and should reasonably be included within this conversation.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

37 HP
Same motor, 37 HP (310 lbs) penalty
Only out run by 0.03?

Here is some apples to think about...
Same Motor, Same Specs, Lets switch them.
How much "Bad'r" would the Corvette be then?
I think at least 3 tenths, or it blows the tires off
How fast you think that camaro would go at corvette weight?
Apples

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Have to agree!! BUT lets face it, J Allen was fender driving from the 330! No sense in getting hp if you don't have to. I think all models with same engine combo should be rated the same unless these cars can top 140mph! You wont see areo pkg much difference until reach this speed! ( In my opinion)

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

I frankly think it's a shame you have all that motor in the wrong car. I would beg, borrow, start a gofund me page or whatever it takes to get a vette to slide that motor into. Then I'd put it in "blackbird" mode and let her eat until you get the horsepower equalized. After that, slip the engine back into the bird and this can be settled once and for all. The other option is to drive around for a couple of years in super-slow mode and write a letter. Never heard of anyone doing that though.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Wow! Is that accurate?

That's a dramatic difference in overall weight. Square these up and I'm confident the fender advantage your referenced goes away and then some.

That Camaro certainly makes significant power. Who prepared the engine?

Drag coefficients begin to play a role well before 140.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

If that was Allen's good engine, I might agree. However, it's a new car that still has some in it, and if my memory is correct it's got an engine he took on trade in it. I mean I guess he could drag the red car back out and set the record so low that people start selling their cars, but what's the fun in that.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

The drag created by any car body in motion, is proportional to the square of velocity, so it is important at any speed. The force will increase as the speed increases.

Drag starts to have a noticeable effect at 10 MPH and downforce, depending on the frontal shape of the car, as early as 40 MPH.
This is not taking into consideration the rake of the body as it accelerates down the track.

Like the adage says, looks can be deceiving. Although a car may look or appear to be fast just by its looks, it does not mean it is aerodynamically efficient.

The 1998 thru 2002 Camaro are one of the most aerodynamic cars ever built. Below are the body specs:

Wheelbase
Track Width (Front)
Track Width (Rear)
Length
Width
Height
Ground clearance
Cd

Below are the body specs for the Corvette:

Wheelbase
Track Width (Front)
Track Width (Rear)
Length
Width
Height
Ground clearance
Cd

The Camaro has a shorter wheelbase and narrower body than the Corvette.

The Corvette has a lower roof height and shorter length than the Camaro.

The difference in both cars drag coefficient is only .02 which in the case of a drag car, is technically irrelevant.

So in a nutshell, the Corvette does not have an advantage over the Camaro as regards to body size or aerodynamics.

As a matter of fact, I believe that more detailed analysis will show the longer body and rear shape of the Camaro is an advantage at higher speeds and weight transfer when compared to the blunt, short rear of the Corvette.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

I'm surprised talk on this is continuing. J Allen can bomb the B/SA index anytime he wants. But that would be stupid. I've seen a video of the red vette testing at B weight and all I will say is you boys better find some more............

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Ed nailed it!

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

It's talked about because that's what we do and it's fun. Allen's car is wicked bad fast. But anything can happen at anytime. He didn't run B at Indy last year l, Slate Cummins did and lost to Jim Boudreau. I sure Kevin Hems needs to be mentioned in the same conversation as Allen. That Challenger is very fast as well.

To me the king is crowned at Indy. Done.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Are there any Fords in the mix?
Mike A114
P/SA

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

The Corvette is significantly better aerodynamically as the frontal area on the Corvette is much smaller. Here's some info that I found a while back for 4th gen Camaro/Firebirds/C5 Corvettes:

1993-2002 Camaro/Firebird: Cd = 0.34, A = 22.0, CdA = 7.48
C5 Corvette: Cd = 0.29, A = 21.3, CdA = 6.18 (note the Z06 is higher)

A C5 is actually better than a Cobalt, and a third gen is actually better than a 4th gen. Obviously this is at stock ride height with stock wheels/tires, etc, so it would change some for a drag car. That being said, if you do the math, it's only a few hundredths difference.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Don't know how much you know about class racing, but the Camaro and Firebird started there lives @ 305hp. They now are 381 because of ego runs, and I can see it happening again in this situation. Alan will play him all the way to horsepower. On the other side the Camaro is definitely the FASTEST LS1 I've ever seen @ 3405 pounds.

Jeff Longhany

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

And this is the reason for my post! These engines in all combos SHOULD be rated the same! Even in the GTO's! At say 130 mph on the big end at best should only be a couple hundreds between them! Andrew can you find any info on say your combo and the 1st gen Camaro and the 70 Corvette to compare the drag coefficient to these cars discussed here?

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Being an LS1 follower for years, you can stop smiling any time now Albert Lee, I believe the 346 LS1 in a Corvette is at factory horsepower of 345. If I remember correctly the flat hood cars were @ 305 hp and the fresh air cars were @ 320 hp. I could be wrong, but I always try to pay attention.

Re: Bad Stockers, maybe too bad!
 

In all candor, if either car is that quick - or any for that matter, it sounds like the system developed to look after unbalanced performance levels such as this should be allowed to work. Why have the AHFS in place at all? If the system is valid and effective, let it work.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Not trying to start an argument, nevertheless, where did you get your data? Calculations do not replace actual wind tunnel results.

The data I posted is from from actual testing done for General Motors at my former employer's wind tunnel.

Although General Motors has its own wind tunnel, it was not available to the public or racing teams until 2009. Prior to 2009, GM contracted the wind tunnel testing with outside vendors.

This is the same wind tunnel were Warren Johnson tested his new Pro Stock Firebird late 1998 and ended changing the shape of the quarter panels and rake of the car.

When he showed up at Pomona in 1999, he had to redo the quarter panels with a hammer on his car after he was protested by others and eventually Rick Jones re-skinned the quarter panels to the likes of NHRA. It is the same wind tunnel were Warren learned first hand how much drag and horsepower penalty is on a hood scoop.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

If all else was equal, I'll take the 7-10% reduction in drag coefficient.


Interesting comment regarding the hood scoop. I did the calculations on many Super Class scoop designs and determined the cars would be faster with the scoop reversed or no scoop at all. One racer even admitted that was the case based on his testing but thought it looked cool so he left it as-is.

Hold a flat palm out the window at 60, 70 or 100 mph and you'll quickly see how much force is applied. It certainly eats power.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

You are correct, many years ago when I lived and worked in Reno, Nevada, one of my friends was the pilot for the Dago Red P-51 Mustang race airplane. When they modified the under fuselage scoop that cools the radiator to a smaller and more aerodynamic scoop, almost half the size, the airplane picked up an additional 18 MPH with no other changes due to the drag reduction.

In a race car, in addition to the drag based on the drag coefficient number of the particular body, you have to deal with two other issues; lift and ground effects.

In an airplane, the ground effect only occurs while accelerating during take-off and decelerating during the landing, with drag effecting the most during the takeoff. There is no ground effects after level flight and lift is zero.

However, in a race car, you have both the lift and ground effects influencing the car during the whole run and also having an impact on the acceleration and handling of the car. Then add a big scoop to the hood and now you have another additional item effecting the performance of the vehicle.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Please explain how a plane stays in level flight with zero lift. Would think it would need lift equal to its weight.

Re: Bad Stockers, maybe too bad!
 

The AHFS would work a lot better if they used the 1/8 mile times.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

There are four forces that keep the airplane; thrust, weight, lift and drag.

Thrust, like any other object, keeps and maintains the forward motion.

Weight maintains the center of gravity or the center of mass so the airplane can fly as close to level as its design, minimizing the aircraft controls input. Its correlation is to thrust for its forward motion.

Drag, as any other object in motion is always there and the airplane, like any other vehicle, is designed to reduce the drag by reducing its footprint or coefficient of drag.

Lift is dependent of the airflow around the object as it moves forward due to thrust. There are other variables such as the shape of the object and weight. In the case of an airplane, the air moves around the wings give and maintain the airplane lift.

Zero lift is a term used in flight dynamics science in which during level flight there is an equilibrium of the yaw, pitch and roll axis during flight which is also known as leveled wings or Zero bank angle. In this configuration, the forces are balanced for optimum aircraft performance and operation.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Yeah, but how much faster would that airplane run the 1/4 mile in if it was 10% lighter and more aerodynamic? Because that is what we are talking about here with the camaro vs vette. Same engine

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

It's difficult to debate the Corvette's need for some significant and immediate factor assistance.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

If the ego contest of Camaro racers had been kept in check, it would still be at the 305 it was originally rated at. The vette has been 345 from the beginning, even when the Camaro was 305. They wouldn't lower the vette back then, when no one could figure out how to get one down the track, so the reverse argument holds no water now. If you want to complain about the factor on the f-body cars, there are plenty of racers that helped get it there, same as a whole lot of other combos that aren't as good as they once were. The AHFS exists to prevent "pencil whipping" a combo to death. It's not perfect, but it's the rules we race under. Think it should be changed? Talk to NHRA

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

I don't think it should be changed.
I enjoy my ridiculously under-factored car.
I just want to point out a few things some people don't realize is happening.
The Factory cars get crap all the time about their factors.Its time some traditional cars get the spotlight. And what better car than someone who is asking for it with "The Baddest B Stocker in the Country", when its really a AA Stocker

Hate to break it to this guy, but 9.80 only gets you 0.90 under the AA/SA index. Which is where the Vette, at that weight, would be with the same factoring as the same engine in the other lane.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

If everything equal, rear gear, trans,same fluids, etc and both leave the line exactly the same way, hit the shift points exactly at the same time, etc etc, the et's will be almost the identical!!!!

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

I guess we will have to wait another year to see who is the Baddest B/SA.
I don't Think "God's Gift to the LS1" will grace us with his presence this year even though he is still entered.
All you other fools with your low power engines will have to fight it out for Second place in the hearts and minds of everyone.
We all know if he was here, you wouldn't even be in B.
Can't wait to see whos gets to hold the Fake Crown this year.
I can already see the relief on some competitors faces, Thankful he spared them this year.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

The winner of class at Indy is the baddest to anyone who has been around in this sport. You will one day see, the rest is just talk and nonsense.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Not if you got boat load of money.

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Well there a guy who's #26 in line who just might still be a player in B/SA (Bill Hawk 67 Shelby)

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

… …

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

[QUOTE=Kenny Boy;542879]I guess we will have to wait another year to see who is the Baddest B/SA.
I don't Think "God's Gift to the LS1" will grace us with his presence this year even though he is still entered.
All you other fools with your low power engines will have to fight it out for Second place in the hearts and minds of everyone.
We all know if he was here, you wouldn't even be in B.
Can't wait to see whos gets to hold the Fake Crown this year.
I can already see the relief on some competitors faces, Thankful he spared them this year.[/QUOT

Hmmm Kenny are you entered in Indy or do you even have a car ? lol I think you are a Keyboard racer hope your finger tips don't get worn out

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

What ever your smoking you should stop

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

Randy I ain't smoking nothing you haven't so chill out. My post was in reference to mike jones question about any ford players. I know Sherman and Jim and would hope they know I wasn't saying Hawks the man in B/SA. Not to mention Gary Richards as a wicked fast camaro also. Whoever walks away with the B/SA wary will have definitely earned it! I'm

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

I'm starting to hear rumors amongst the stacking area that the Greatest Engine Builder Ever will be making his appearance, but he might not be in B/SA. Word on the street is, He is going pick a fight with an Orange '69 Camaro. Says "I'm gonna show that OLD man a thing or two"

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

All talking stops when they hand out the Trophy, all the rest is speculation

Re: Who's the Baddest B/SA now?
 

"Greatest Engine Builder Ever" Anybody know who this Cat is?