Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

By undercover, I assume you mean not for everyone?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I doubt NHRA will work backwards at this point, and a doubt owners are going to park these cars. How about a logical step in a positive direction? Points for qualifying. Points for records. Give people motivation to let them rip and you will see the present system work faster.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Mike - I agree .........But you can't go back in time - this exactly how it was in the Seventies .But we'll all give you a pass on this one ........you're young ! ! !

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Simple solution. If the new car redlights just drive across the center line. No scale.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

:-)

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

They should make all class racing, starting 2013, heads up off the current indexes....With the AHFS in affect. This would not take too many races to "correct" some of the HP ratings, and look at the fun it would be.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I say all the 2008 and newer supercars that do not have a VIN should run in FX.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

That would iron things out faster. LOL
Sounds like fun.
Personally, I would go for that.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It's amusing. The guys with new cars, who make up around 5-10% of the class, want to force the guys with older cars, who make up most of the rest of the class, to buy a bunch of new high dollar parts, and spend a bunch more money to take weight out, which would require even more new rules.

Why is it that the vast majority, say 90% of the class, should have to make massive and expensive adjustments in order to accommodate the other 10% or less?

The solution is to put the new under factored factory race cars where they always went for the previous 40 years or so. In their own classes, or in Super Stock.

In order to make a 69 Chevrolet 427/425 L-72 even remotely competitive with a new 2012 LSx 427/425, you'd need a new set of heads, a new 1050 cfm carburetor, a new single plane intake to match the heads, and a new roller cam, lifters, and springs. Then you'd need a new set of headers, a new converter, and maybe a new rear gear. So, the guys with old cars should have to buy $15K worth of new parts, and effectively move to what amounts to a Super Stock engine program, in order to again be competitive, because NHRA has allowed the factory race cars in the class knowing full well what would happen?

Jeff, you want to give us 5%? Seriously? That makes my L-72 427/425 rated at 404HP. So in A/SA, I take off 168 pounds, or less than 2 tenths. And that is supposed to make us even remotely competitive with a combination rated exactly the same that has at least 150HP more than we can ever hope to make? That's a complete joke, and you know it. We'd still be 3-5 tenths behind, at best.

By the way, Jeff, I never said that the guys running the Mopar and Ford programs, Dale Aldo and Jesse Kershaw, ever publicly gloated over Chevrolet not having a competitive car for 4 years (2008-2012). What I said was, and you know it to be true, that this board was filled completely with people who were all too happy to sing the praises of NHRA for allowing this absurd situation to come about, specifically because Chevrolet did not have a factory car at the time. They were elated that the bogus factory race cars, that did not belong in Stock, were able to dominate the traditional legitimate Chevrolet combinations.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I remember when NHRA published a new rule that superseded the old "factory produced in numbers greater than 500" (or something like that) with; "Factory cars of 50 or less subject to NHRA approval" (again, words to that affect).
I remember wondering "why would they do that?" I'm guessing it was around 1992 (anybody know?) because the answer seemed to be that Pontiac wanted LT-1 Firehawks in the game.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

1993 nhra rule book. "All cars in stock classes must be factory-production assembled, showroom available and in the hands of the general public."

1994 nhra rulebook. "All cars in stock classes must be factgory-production assembled, showroom available and in the hands of the general public. A minimum 500 units of a particular body style must be produced."

In 1997 or earlier the nhra rule book added the following paragraph and remained the same through 2007. "O.E.M. may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the official nhra stock car classification guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent."

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It's pretty safe to say all Stocker combinations make a LOT more HP than they are rated at and its my understanding that NHRA adds HP if a combination runs too far under the index.

So, is it a bogus HP rating issue or is the irritation because CJ/DP/COPO can be bought over the counter & doesn't require a racer to tear down a donor car & build it up from scratch?

In either case the cars will probably have a ton of modifications and/or trick parts & money spent on them so I'm not entirely sure how it's different from one vs. the other once they're ready to race.

How many of the newer cars hold class records compared to older cars? I think this mostly pertains to A/Stock and lower since AAA, AA, BB, and CC seem to be made for the newer cars with higher HP but maybe I'm mistaken.

I guess I'm just not sure what the actual problem is since most of the new cars run in AAA to CC and the remaining classes seem to be filled with cars from the muscle car era that hold records in almost all of those classes.

In the past, were there certain combinations that dominated classes & left other racers to feel like everything was good until that combination came along & ruined it for everyone?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Do you actually race with us? I doubt it. If so, you have not been paying attention. There are DPs that started out in H/SA. In Super Stock we have them down as far as SS /JA. Probably lower that I have not seen. It is an easy way for checkbook racers with no experience to get fast quick and easy.

Besides, the HP rating in Stock is not what they are supposed to be making on the track with blueprinting and the camshafts and valve springs now allowed, but what they are supposed to put out from the factory. You don't appear to have a very good understanding of what we are doing.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Actually one of the CJ combos started off in J/S Ed. :eek: Jim

.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Wow!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

For a new guy that is getting ready to start racing Stock in 2013. Why are the "new cars" unfair?

Do they not get grouped in with the others that are of the same power?

I just saw that the 4.0 blower 327 COPO's has had the HP rating changed due to faster times. Is the adjustment nowhere close to where it needs to be? (I'm guessing not after reading the other posts here?)

Is there a place that has Class racing info for the Newbie? The info I have found is awful.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

They are supposed to be grouped with cars at similar ratings, usually. Take the 5.7 liter Hemi DP. Started out at 305 hp, in F/SA, June 2010. It got an adjustment the first race out. A year later it was 404. Now, it's 417 or something, runs BB and CC, and can STILL qualify near the top. Some of the new cars are close to what many would consider a fair rating. Others...not as close.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Jim Wahl, one of cj conv. started out in L/SA and K/S not J. Tom

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

After doing some research, yes, you are correct.Jim


.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

My Ipad is starting to weep again.......

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

If this is actually true, then Chrysler needs ask for their money back.

NHRA never allowed them to put a blower on Mopars...

If I could put a blower on my Drag Pak, I wouldn't have a problem running against Ford and/or Chevy.......

But oh well, maybe Toyota will step in... Then you could all complain they there are unAmerican as well as unfair.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Every stocker makes more HP than they are rated, but that's understood. A good one will make 1.5 times the rated HP or so, depending on the dyno. The rated HP is not what they actually make, yes, but it's the same for all combos so there's no reason to change it just to change weight breaks or letters on the window.

Yes, there have been combinations that dominated in the past, but never this much. When the LT1s and LS1s came out and had such low ratings, NHRA made fuel injected classes until their ratings became inline with their carbureted counterparts. All that people are asking is for the same type of thing.

There are lots of combos that fit the lower classes, and because not many people run them, they aren't getting hit with HP much, if at all.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It seems like this is what's really got everyone pissed off.

Since everyone seems to agree that all stockers make more HP than they are rated at, there is no basis to complain about bogus numbers right?

I keep hearing complaints of new car dominance but if that's the case why do older cars hold almost all of the national records?

Out of all the NHRA events this past summer, what is the breakdown of wins by new cars vs. older cars? What's the breakdown of top-10 qualifiers, old vs. new?

Also wondering whether anyone actually knows how many people raced in Stock in 2008 (when all the supposed troubles began) and how many do now?

Just trying to get this because I am newly interested in NHRA racing so I'm "walking in the door today", so to speak, and If I started to race it'd be with a car that was produced during my lifetime.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

You are simply too clueless to converse with.

Why don't you man up and use your real name.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

You just can't buy that "soft" HP factor back, huh? You've only invested a couple of years in this venture. I've poured over 25 years of hard work and tons of money, building my own car, engine, trans., etc. with my own hands.
I thought it was bad in the '90's when the under factored LT1's and LS1's were kicking our butts, but the stuff going on now is light years beyond that. Not everyone has the funds available or the desire to buy a turn-key race car with a "joke" of a HP factor. These new cars have made a mockery of the class.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

With a comment like this no wonder some people don't like to use real names. He asks legitimate questions and your response is "clueless".

Your intolerance and lack of respect makes Class Racers look like a bunch of stuck up racers.

Is that how you want new people getting into class racing to perceive us?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Yes Greg manufactures are paying off NHRA for low hp ratings in STK and SS for there cars. That has to be the dumbest thing you have ever wrote on here. If you think ford racing is sending NHRA money then you really have no clue. It has nothing to do with paying people off or corruption.
NHRA COULD NOT GIVE A ***$ ABOUT YOUR 40 YEAR OLD CAR. That is what it comes down to. If you don't like it don't race. NHRA seam to be doing very well with out all you crying ***** Clowns that are not running national events. I know in the 70s and 80s there were no hp problems and the racing was great but there over now so adapt and race or park you cars and sit home remembering the good old days.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

This is not the fault of the racers that go out and buy their cars.
That is the way it's done. Look at the pro classes? How many of them started in the sportsman ranks?
Not all of us remember going to the junkyard in search of race car parts. Times have changed.
The fault lies totally with NHRA and the bogus horsepower numbers.
When the Hemi came out, Chrysler rated it at 425 hp. Before one ever hit the track NHRA raised it to 500 for the race hemi and 480 for the street hemi in superstock and 440 for the street hemi in stock. I'm sure there were other combos that were handled the same.
NHRA wanted these new cars so bad they sold their souls to get them

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Because most of the checkbook racers with new cars do not want to get their hands dirty or would even know how to tear down their engine. Setting a national record is something you choose to do by putting "R" on your window and pulling into the record lane. Very few of the underrated new cars pull into the record lane even though they could destroy their class record. But that would mean a hit on their bogus horsepower.

The new cars with bogus horsepower are looking for the easy win in a heads up run. Now that is what pi$$es the racers off who have raced for years and have maxed out their combinations. If the factored horsepowers on the new cars were accurate there would be very little to complain about.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Art- That says it all.

Charlie, who supplies NHRA with their official vehicles? Oh, that's right...Ford.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

~the factory HP rating is used for factoring puprposes only. Factory shipping weight, divided by HP (either factory or NHRA) = your natural class you can run. Example: 1967 Camaro, with a 396 cid, 325 hp motor and TH-350 transmision; shipping weight is 3,256 pounds. 3,256 divided by 325 = 10.01, making the car an E/SA. By rule, a car can add/subtract weight to run F/SA or D/SA. NHRA still has this motor at 325, as on-track performance has not dictated a change. Conversely, I think every new combination from Ford and Dodge has been hit by NHRA; the big-blower COPO (S/S-only has been also, in it's first two months, and the 427 cid naturally aspirated one will get a hit soon as part of the Year End adjustments). Yet, some cars, even receiving LARGE amounts of HP from NHRA, can still qualify near the top of the sheets. The 5.7 DragPak has been hit 110+ hp, from F/SA (305 hp) up to CC/SA (417), and can still qualify in the top 10. Find any other car that has got that much and still qualify like that in Stock. So, yes, that particular car was BOGUS.

A better example of technology (I wrote this in a story in Sept 2010):
The 5.9 360 cid Mopar engine in the late 1970's Aspen/Volare's is rated 289, by NHRA. A fast one of these will run 11.20's in H/SA (Jim Wahl in Florida has one). Now, compare Jeff Tueton's 2009 5.9 360 in a DragPak. It has a 1000 cfm throttle body, plastic intake, better flowing heads, .490" roller cam, and has run 10.52 in G/SA, while running at H weight , and was rated at the time at 275!!!. NHRA should have looked at the specs and realized that a FAR superior engine should NOT be rated FOURTEEN HP LESS!!! And oh yeah, Jeff's DP at the time got to weigh one hundred and fifty four (154) pounds LESS than Jim's Aspen. Can you say "bring a tank to a water pistol fight"?

If that doesn't illustrate the joke of these new cars, even to a newbie, nothing will.

~the older cars can set the record anytime they want to--they just choose not to. Not everyone wants to spend 5-6 hours tearing the motor down having it inspected, and put back together. I did it once, in 2004, to set a record which was worth points, back then, in IHRA. I wouldn't do it without incentive now, if I were still racing. Trust me, if the racers so desired, every record from AAA/SA to E/SA would have a 2008 and newer car as the record holder (and lower with some of the 281 Mustangs in H-I/SA).

~there have been a few new cars win races; John Calvert won in the first race ever by the then-new CJ's in 2009; Jeff Tueton won Indy last year in a DP, Charlie Fitzsimmons (?)) won G-ville this year. The new CJ/DP/COPO cars make up, probably, less than 10% of the total cars in Stock. To the uneducated, this may not seem like such a big deal. Just realize, though-- if you get to the semifinals at Indy in your CC/SA-A/SA older Camaro/Cuda/Mustang, and you race a new car in a heads-up run, you have NO CHANCE to win, unless the new car redlights/breaks. If the older cars had a CHANCE at winning a run such as that, I think many would feel a little better about it.

~Car counts are down a bit since 2008 (would have to go back and do an average), and down a lot since the early 2000's when I started. It's not all the new cars, by any means. Economy, cost of going racing, gas/tolls, general displeasure with NHRA/IHRA overall, etc. But having the new cars, putting many racers into the distinct possibility of getting their ___ kicked in a heads-up run, with a 5% chance of winning, doesn't appeal to many either. I've seen quite a few good CC to E/SA cars go up for sale the past three years. Coincidence?

~Not sure how old you are. If you're young(er), like me (I turned thirty three a month ago), your choice of car is, basically, a new factory racecar (unless you build a Cobalt or other modern FWD car). Figure on spending over $100,000 to get into the game (or buy a street model, buy the parts to convert it into a clone car, and maybe save a few bucks). I would reccomen buying a ready-to-go racecar vs building one. Yes, you won't get the satisfaction of building it, but it'll be cheaper and less headaches in the long run.

Here is another exerpt from an article I wrote in 2010, just after Indy that year.

"The following are the best runs of that year for C, D, E and G/SA, NHRA and IHRA both, for the past two seasons. All HP as of the time the run was made.

Class Name Car Cid/HP ET Race
NHRA 2008
C/SA Cody Lane, '96 Corvette 350/330 10.386 Qualifying Woodburn D-6 race
D/SA Scott Burton, '71 Formula 455/340 10.513 Q Earlville Iowa, September
E/SA Ken Kopecky, '71 Demon 340/314 10.664 Q Dutch Classic Nat'l Open October
G/SA Jim Marshall, '81 Corvette 350/285 10.933 Q Dutch Classic NO

IHRA 2008
C/SA Jim Boudreau, '69 Camaro 396/375 10.430 Q Epping NA Nat'ls September
D/SA Leon Philpot, '71 Corvette 454/365 10.770 D4-6 Baton Rouge LA
E/SA Jim Kaekel, '70 Olds 442 455 11.001 D5-5 Osceola IN September
G/SA JIm Marshall '81 Corvette 350/285 10.933 Q World Finals October


NHRA 2009
C/SA Jim Conte, '69 Mustang 428/383 10.335 Rd 5, D1-5, Cecil County August
D/SA Brad VanLant, '71 Duster 340/314 10.559 Q Earlville D5-6 September
E/SA Brad Van Lant " " " " 10.622 Q KCIR Nat'l Open October
G/SA Jim Marshall 10.933 Q D2-6 Renolyds GA October

IHRA 2009
C/SA Jim Boudreau, '69 Camaro 396/375 10.199 Q D1-7 Epping September
D/SA Leon Philpot, '71 Corvette 454/365 10.779 Rd 1 D4-4 Baton Rouge
E/SA Jerry Davis, '71 Duster 340/314 10.833 Q Texas Nationals
G/SA Jim Marshall '81 Corvette 350/285 10.905 Q Canadian Nationals

All these runs were made by really good cars, in pretty good air, by people who have had them, beat on them, and know them pretty well, for quite a while.


Now, let's look at some of the runs from this past weekend at Indy.

C/SA Dempsey Pendarvis, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 9.797
D/SA Irvin Johns, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 9.983
E/SA Carey Bales, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 10.000
G/SA Jeff Tueton, '09 Challenger 5.9 275 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 10.529 (at H/SA weight, a140 pounds or so heavy)

These cars, having been on the track for a year or less, outran a lot of really good cars by anywhere from FOUR TO SIX TENTHS, using the new cars Indy runs compared to the old cars best runs, in good air. Heads-up at the same race at Indy, some new cars were outrunning really good old cars by as much as EIGHT TENTHS. Just imagine how fast they, along with the new Mustangs combos, will be with more track time, testing, etc. And the 3.25% horsepower that the 5.7, 5.9 Mopars and the Mustang combination Chris Holbrook has will receive tomorrow will barely make a dent in the armor. And all from cars you could not get from a dealer."

Also, I wrote this for ClassRacer last year. Better explains how cars are classified, and re-factored based on performance:
http://classracer.com/classes.html

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Also, until a few years ago, all Stockers were street-cars. Able to be licensed, insured and registered for street use, emissions legal, etc. Any car not in that theme (race Hemi's, AMX, Thunderbolt and factory purpose-built racecars) were S/S-only. Not the case anymore. These F/X Stockers, you can not buy them from a local dealer (the only street Challenger is 4,200 pounds, with a 6.1 Hemi, and NOT accepted by NHRA for Stock Eliminator. You can not buy, from a dealer a 352/428 Mustang either, or the COPO version Camaros). The factory race cars are several hundred pounds lighter than their showroom cousins. Most of the versions you CAN buy from a dealer are not NHRA or IHRA-legal for Class Racing. So, if you're a young kid, like new cars, and want to run Stock, you have three options:

A) spend $100K on a new racecar, and then look for a street car;

B) buy a street car at $40K or so, and spend all the time and money (on top of the initial investment) to make your car legal with the accepted engine and stuff for Stock, take out several hundred pounds, correct body parts, etc; or

C) just take your new-generation street car and run local brackets and forget Class Racing all together.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I doubt any carburated stocker of the last 40 years could pass an emissions test, especially on leaded racing fuel.. lol
And aren't the AA, BB, CC classes basically for the newer factory cars? Maybe need a DD,EE huh?
Also why doesn't someone who just went out and paid somewhere between $105k and $250k for a stock eliminator car deserve to qualify top half?
And the big three need to continue to find ways to generate revenue or they will have to borrow more taxpayer money(lol) or several people will be out of work.
Hey NHRA racing is expensive, hell its $500-600 just to go to one of the closest LODRS points race. Its gotten beyond my wallets threshhold for pain, and I've invested several hundred thousand dollars over the past 20 years and taken several losses. But I have accepted that it is just beyond me now and I will run when I can, where I can and if I can. Sounds like several others here are just going to have to face the same reality. Its a rich mans game, they do not care that much, go big or go home isn't that what they say on the big tv at the races?. Theres always bracket racing, supporting your local track, and possibly reducing your stress and debt level. I wish everyone the best

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Jim ,ford and ford racing are basicly two different companys under one roof. They don't operate together. If ford is in bed with NHRA why is the drag pack and copo HP soft. You can't tell me all these company have nothing better to do them pay NHRA so they can have a soft HP rating. They have better places to spend money

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

These discussions can be entertaining. It is clear that it is subject that some feel very strong about. The only issue I have with the discussions is the name calling and painting everyone and everything with such a wide brush. It is not required or helpful for the cause.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Most had accepted the fact that it costs $500-$600 just to race at an LODRS but that was part of racing Stock or SS. Now along with the cost of racing comes the chance of a heads up run against a newer bogus underrated factory racecar. In a heads up race against one of those cars it's not about who is the better driver, it's about who has the bigger checkbook. I'm sure any racer would be happy to run against a newer car if there was spot involved. That puts it all on the driver. But when a heads up run happens, the older cars do not stand a chance because of bogus factoring.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

"Also why doesn't someone who just went out and spent between $105K and $250K for a Stock Elim car deserve to qualify in the top half?"

Really??

I had to read that a half dozen times plus clean my glasses.

Wow

Plus I doubt these cars are adding to the corporate profits.

Visibility, PR, Good Will perhaps.

Full page ads in ND, official vehicles, continued Race sponsorship, signage in lieu of actual payola is where the quid pro quo is.....

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Let me see if I've got this straight, you think that because you just spent $105-$250k on a race car you should be ENTITLED to qualify in the top of the field? That may be the lamest statement I've ever read on this site! Welcome to the 21st century mindset.
I can think of a couple of reasons why you SHOULDN'T qualify in the top half no matter how much money you've spent, no smarts, no talent and no work ethic.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I still don't get how older cars are at a disadvantage in the classes below CC/S unless those cars were not able to run very far under the index in the first place . Or maybe the indexes were wrong to begin with?

I'm also confused about the horsepower ratings on some of the older combinations like the Cobra Jet 1968 Mustang. Did it really makes 335 horsepower?

I know my buddy's dad went to great trouble to find all the correct parts to build a 427/ 425 for his 1969 Nova Yenko clone. It had all factory parts in it including the camshaft. Even though there were ridges on the tops of the cylinders and some of the parts looked pretty bad it still made over 550 horsepower. So can it be said that that combination also has a bogus rating?

So far the only thing I see that makes sense as an argument against new cars is that they were not torn down and built up from the ground like some of the older cars and that they were not really intended for the street.


So that makes me wonder weather NHRA required cars to be street legal in the original days of stock eliminator and for that matter whether they allowed 14 inch tires and 4 links in super stock back then?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

You got that right.


Look at the number 1 qualifier at Indy in Stock this year.I might be wrong,but I doubt there was between 105k and $250k in that vehicle.

A lot of the horsepower factors for the older cars/vehicles are just as wrong as the new cars.