Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I wish all crate motor guys would just stick to bracket racing.You guys arent considered real racers! And I am speaking for myself! Lousy no goods. Damn us all to hell and eternal damnation, we are not worthy to the cause.However I would much rather have $2,700 in my motor and go out first round rather than $27,000. whats a win worth when some contingents dont even pay out! Hmmmmmmmm.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Sorry Lee, I don't think that's true. (although I don't want to get into the equation of hard work vs spending money) :rolleyes: I went to Indy last year, and trust me, it's a totally different world... but that's the point, too. There are many different types of racers, who are racing for different reasons, with different goals in mind. One's not necessarily better than another. They're just different. IMO, crate motor races need to respect the go-fast NHRA guys, and likewise, they could pay a little respect back.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I think the problem most have is the fact that Crate Motor Stockers aren't Stockers, in that they weren't originally built. If they had all came that way originally, that would be fine. But putting a 502 in a Vega or 460 in a later model T-bird or something, and calling it a Stocker, is quite a stretch. And I can see their points. The Ross family has a pair of late model Sebrings, with crate engines. They should be, and probably are, a candidate for either Best Engineered, Best Appering, and probably both, at any race they go to...very well built and prepared cars. Same with George Wrights Ford Probe.. But I think very few would believe they belong in Stock. A '90-something Sebring or Probe, with RWD, a carbureted V8, a car like that should be in SS/GT, in most people's opionion. I guess many feel that the car should have a build sheet with x-amount produced in that configuration, to be called a Stocker. As far as adding HP to all the crate motors, I don't think that would solve much, except making them heavier. If you wanted to slow them down, so they don't "hog up the top qualifying spots" just hit the Index a tenth or so. There are a lot of them around, and C/M racers DO work on their combo's, and they are fast as a result. They still have their rules and specs, in regards to what is legal and what isn't, and have to abide by them, same as a 'regular' Stocker. I've raced in NHRA and IHRA both, and whatever the rules are, that's what we race under, regardless of whatever classes are permitted. Like was said earlier, except for Class or a heads-up run, it's still mostly a bracket race. What does it matter if a D/CM Nova or whatever runs two seconds under? If you have an E/SA Camaro that is two tenths under, you both still use shoe-polish, right? And you both have the same shot to win. I'm also sure that many purists would say the same thing about the Modified and GT cars in S/S. They've been here for over twenty years, and there's very little complaining about them? I'm a purist too, and am not a HUGE fan of crate motors, Stock or SS/GT, hood-scooped cars and the like, but hey, they're here, we can't really do too much about it. Just run your own race, dial your own car, and I think we'd all be better drivers. Or, at least better off.

B.D.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

they wanna talk about our indexes and qualifying under but i don't even think the fastest crate motors in ihra would have even qualified at indy last year i did see the sheet for stock there were -1.60's on there and i think even higher

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

MIke - I don't know that the Ross's and Wright's cars are good examples, because they are in a class of their own, quite literally. (FWD conversion crate) and I believe they are the only three in the country.

I qualified 6th at Martin (IHRA Nat'l event where they ran Class) in similar weather conditions to what we had at Indy. I would've qualified at Indy, but just by a few hundredths. (and YES, I've spent money on my car.)

quickest crate at Martin was 4th...
Bob Marshall H/CM '73 Dart Sport, -1.027 under 10.973, with 325hp 360 @ 3258# min (9.50# class) would've placed him 83rd at Indy.
compared to Indy's #6 qualifier
David Buckner E/SA '72 Duster -1.233 under 10.767 (which frickin' RAWKED!) :D with 289hp 340 @ 3060# min (10# class)

While the comparison is for entertainment purposes only, it doesn't seem like they are worlds apart, all things considered.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

1 point mike

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Once you get past the rage you'll see that except for a few guys who either screw up or want to blast their HP rating,the majority of 1.50 runs and faster are the result of the classification being wrong on the sheet.
I've been on this and other sites from just about the beginning.It's a shame what the internet has
contributed to the dumbing down of S/SS.And alot of it is no names and FORMER racers (not
only Dick).
If the majority of S/SS racers,who still love doing what we're doing ,stuck together for the good of the sport,not their agendas,maybe NHRA would be forced to take us more serious than they do now.
Jumping off Dick's soap box now.

Ed F.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

your right ed

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

..Good(Bad) Example..when a 75 Vette leads a 69 L88- Vette for low ET.. the Class just dont look appealing to anyone.. fans,racers or others...exept maybe the guy in the 75 Vette ofcourse..well.it just dosent do it for me..

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Good post Mike!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

i run superstock once or twice a year if trying to set a record. otherwise i stay home and run local. www.headsup-racing.com. does not matter to me if they let monster trucks in. it is just a glorified bracket race.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I thought NHRA was trying to cut the number of classes in stock and super stock (and according to Dick Butler have more heads up races - which by the way I like) not add to them. Doesn't IHRA have around 150 stock classes: stock, crate motor, GT, pure stock (whatever that means), GT with mufflers, etc. There was a discussion about the number of NHRA stock and super stock classes on this forum several times. Too many, don't need anymore. It has already gotten to the point where a class win doesn't pay much because of too many classes. Too many single runs for class. Good point(s) Mike, but let's face it, why even have stock or super stock if it is all about 'shoe polish' dial in? If it's just a glorified bracket race why even have any rules? Why have stock or super stock class run offs? Because it's all about performance !!! That's why must of us got into stock and super stock in the first place. Today some people are trying to change the concept of stock and super stock, but I am in it today for the same reason I got into it 30 yrs ago .. the challenge of running the best cars in the country in my class and winning ... period ...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Ken,

I really beg to disagree with you... I missed my first Rockingham race in 8 years last fall ...
I have been racing IHRA for 15 years, please don't put words in my mouth.. Yes, I do feel crate motors have soft HP factors, thats not only my feelings but many racers...
Ken, other than Top Stock years ago I haven't seen your name on any sheets for a while? You are the one who is trying to stir this up... Leave crates with IHRA and buy or build an NHRA car so you can come play with all of us....If you are planning on buying or building a new stocker, why wouldn't you build an NHRA car where you could run both ??? Don't tell me its about the money, cause a good crate motor isn't cheap either, but they are fast... If you want to run NHRA ,buy or build a car that fits the rules, don't try to change the rules to fit the car you have... You all are trying to make this a bigger thing than it really is, race by the rules !!! I have enjoyed running both NHRA & IHRA, but there are things about both that I don't like... So we all have CHOICES use them... Nobody is forcing anyone to race either NHRA or IHRA class racing .... There are rules in place don't try to change them, live with them or don't show up..... Also don't think that everyone spends 15-20 k on engines, thats exactly what they want you to think ?


Mike, sorry I still think they are soft, but you are right its only a bracket race with rules...I am like you and like to run both NHRA & IHRA....I think we have beat this to death, leave crates with IHRA and have a good 2009 race season.... Come on spring time.........

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

"Talking with a higher up in NHRA they are looking at Crate Motor's.
With car counts being down, this will help fill alot of fields".......im not sure if you read this bun in ken's defence he just staited what he had heard from a higher up in NHRA......and why does it really matter if Ken hasn't raced in awhile...he still a racer and has opinions

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dave R good post and fair too. I certainly agree with buff daddy as well. Still in all, it is what it is!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I have NO idea whether anybody actually talked with NHRA officials,but from a business standpoint,it makes sense.I just read that the WWE laid off 10% of their workforce.Who really knows how bad of financial shape the NHRA is in or could be in soon?Maybe somebody figured out that they could get a lot more revenue in memberships and entry fees if they allowed crate motors into Stock Eliminator.They have taken other traditional IHRA classes before.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dave.....sorry to edit some of your post but you have the right idea. Race where you want. There is NO changing some of these guys minds. You guys can blame me for the "Crate Motor" classes but at the time I introduced it to IHRA the IHRA stock eliminator was about to become extint. It was going away. Now its healthy and still around so some of the NHRA guys can have another choice if they so desire. MOST of the NHRA guys wouldnt cross the street to race with IHRA BEFORE this was started. It was second class for them. As far as $$$$ in some of these crate engines just ask who builds some of these really FAST crate engined cars what it costs. Yep....the same guys and engine shops who build the FAST NHRA cars and they use the same tricks (and more in some cases) and they cost just as much as the engines built for some of the guys who have just posted on this thread. I wont mention names but they know who they are. Mike is right....Its STILL a bracket race except for class or a heads up run. Most are spending BIG money to stroke thier EGO's. Dave is right....Its been beaten to death so as they say..........SHUT UP, STRAP IN, CUT A LIGHT and RACE. May the best man or woman win.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon,
I think you should read before you print.. I was responding to Ken saying I wasn't present at The Rock !!! I was also refering to racing on a budget comment he made in his post to me..
As I said before everyone has choices where to race....Ken made the comment about being at the races.. I have attended many IHRA races and will continue to do so..
As I have said before its still FUN... Lets leave it that way.. Everyone has opinions, we will never agree on everything... I was not the one who brought up missing races !!!! or ( budget) I am a budget racer and never look down at anyone....
Anyway good luck racing in 2009...............

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Terry,
Thanks , I couldn't agree with you more...Hopefully its still about having FUN & doing something we all love...There will always be racers who have and spend more $$$$$. thats a fact of life ... As we know they don't always Win....IHRA & NHRA gives all of us choices on where to race... There is no right or wrong here, its whats good for each racer..

Terry, you did save what was a GONE class in those days... How fast we all forget how it use to be...I also agree with what you did, crates brought back racers and kept things going... My only bitch is the HP factors " Thats it " You guys did what you had too and we are glad you did, even though we never talk about it... Thanks !!!!!

* Sorry, I had already posted before I saw your post.... We should be bitching about ****ty payouts, bad sponsors and lower entry fees.... Important thing is keep Racing alive,,,,

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dave you are absolutely right on what you said...to me it souded like you were saying his opinions didn't matter because he hasn't be on the racing scene in awhile...i understand nobody will ever agree on this subject.....i love racing IHRA and im glad you enjoy it as well..like i sadi awhile back in the post me and my dad are building a Super Stocker that could run both NHRA and IHRA and we know the cost in running the old style intakes and carbs we have been trying to figure up the best combo for our duster in ss/ka....and i would love to try NHRA out when it is done...my saying once again was i would have liked to bring my crate motor car and run stock when we did go to NHRA races.....i also would like to wish you a great 09 season as well and if you come to any NC IHRA races maybe well see each other...ill be the 6 foot 7 guy driving the little black mustang that was built for a 5'10 shorty which is my pops......it really is a sight to see me get in and out of...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Thanks Dave for the kind words. I always said we cant please everyone all of the time but maybe some will be happy some of the time. We made mistakes and we did things right at other times. Cant win them all. As far as the HP factors we had to start someplace back then and we used the factory ratings to start with. Ive been retired for about 8 years from IHRA so I cant help whats happened since then. As far as one association vs the other......they both have thier plus and minus. Ive raced in both and worked for both and I still say the IHRA is a better place for the little guy. The NHRA is more of upsclae deal but not everyone can afford to race on a national tour Kind of like the NFL and the AFL in football. Both have thier place. We should all work together for the betterment of the sportsman racers. Ive had my difference's with certain IHRA personel but I still respect them and think they try to do whats right for the association and the racer. With the economy being what it is we ALL should be glad they have a place to race and a job to pay for our "Habit". Yes.....the bitching should be related to payouts, non paying and slow paying sponsors, schedulimg, pit parking, entry fees, and many etc's that we cant do anything about. May you all win a national event and a championship. Terry

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I will second on that on seeing Brandon getting in and out of that car. You should have asked santa for a bigger car or door.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Beard, Notice I said "work" and not $$$$. You don't necessarily have to spend a fortune... Just my opinion.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon,

Don't ever loose that passion for racing... I look forward to meeting you at one of the races.
Your dad and I already know each other and have raced each other several times... I think he has the advantage and seem to be a good guy.. I know he likes Fords & Mustangs...
Thats what I enjoy most about Racing is the people & friends you make its great.. Don't give up that dream on running your car in NHRA, Stock or Super/Stock, you will love it.
Same problems, just different faces & poor payouts.... But its great to have choices where you can go and race.... I have been telling racers that for years and I like the way IHRA treats the little guys... Like it was years ago, when racing was much more Fun...
But like Terry said, with the way things are we are lucky to still have places to Race..

Terry, your comments are dead-on about sportsmen racing & Ego's... Yes, we are so lucky to have a places to Race... But, I think a Racer association is necessary in the future
of Drag-racing ...Thats why I think we need more All Star & East Coast racing associations.
They will be the where the Sportsmen Groups will have something to offer if they can only STICK together as one... We have a lot to offer if its presented right and band as one group... But, I think it will take all of these splinter groups first, then have our own Sportsnational kind of thing... We are beginning to see these groups have $ 5-10 k races and all in only one day of racing. .(saving on expenses)...But, I think its still a ways off, depending on what happens with NHRA & IHRA in the future.... The roundy/roundy guys stuck together many years ago and Nascar is the final outcome ...It will take time & a person with a Vision.
Nice to have a dream , Time will tell..............

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Too many Mike's...I don't know who is talking to who...lol.

It still amazes me the number of Class Racers who hate using the terms "shoe polish" and "bracket racing". Amazing, because for the majority of us, that's what we do 90% of the times in the eliminator. I'm sure everyone likes being the fastest car in his/her given class. I know myself it's been gratifying to look in copies of Nitro Joe's end-of-year stats and seeing myself in the top spot. And, sure, we all love to win class or a heads-up run or two. But still, it's mainly a, *gasp*, shoe polish bracket race in the eliminator 90% of the time for most of us. Doesn't matter whether it's NHRA, IHRA, Stock, Super Stock, GT, hood scoops, Production, FWD, Pure Stock, whatever. And, we all have our given rules we have to comply with, in regards to chassis, engine, still have to pass teardown, etc. Just because some racers to choose a different route than you, does that make them better, or worse, than you? Certainly not.

And, for the life of me, I still don't know why some want to change the way we do things in Class Racing. Maybe I just don't "get it". If you like to go fast, qualify high, and win class against other fast cars, if that's your bread and butter, you can do that. If you can not either afford, have the knowledge to, or choose to willingly go fast but prefer the skills it takes to cut a light and drive the stripe against some of the best in the world, you can do that also. Some can do both very well. There is something here for everyone, it seems to work for the most part, and I say don't change what isn't broken?

Buff Daddy

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

When? IHRA never tears anyone down. Not in the last 5 years that I seen.

Start tearing some of those things down and watch them slow down.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Most of us like the "shoepolish part" mainly because thats the only way to keep racing all these different make's and models against each other in a fair way ..otherwise it could probably be an "all Camaro race" or similar
..some always call this a glorified bracket race. but thats NOT TRUE...I guess.thats mostly guys that dont care or dare to take the challenge "to win thier Class"..
there is nothing really wrong with the way NHRA class is run and what classes we have now..the factors and rating will allways be "the talk in the pits"..part of the fun? New Ford's and Challengers in the breed now..soon something new to "bitch about"
Pomona is filled in S and SS too!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

mark, i think me and santa are going to try and move the back bar back so we can get a little more room............

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I dont care what H R A you run. If your going .5 under or more its expensive and your cheating somewhere period.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I retired almost 8 (EIGHT)years ago from my job and the thankless rat race of tech. I tried to inspect at least 5 cars at each national event but there was not always TIME. Same as NHRA. Most of the time it was just me or myself and Duane Eiskant Sr. The other guys in tech wanted to or to lean but most of the time its the same problem as NHRA......NOT ENOUGH MAN POWER to do the job. Tracks complained about all of the extra bodies that IHRA brought in to run the scales, fuel check, tech, and drafted most of us to check the track after each pair of Pros ran, scrape the track, pair cars, clean the s##t house or any other job that the premadonnas didnt want to do. I dont know who all is there now but Danny Waters and Hank Blankenship are dedicated and try to as good a job as they can. Some of the tech crew only want to play and kiss *** with the Pro guys. If I was back there (Im to OLD now and dont see it happening) and had the "say so" a lot would not pass teardown. Im off my soap box now. Have a nice day.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Excuse me, both my car and Terry Knott's car when I drove for him have been apart several times.

Re: "glorified bracket race"... yes, it is... and it's the "glorified" part that makes it special! I am a bracket racer. I *like* class racing, whether it be class runoffs, heads-up runs in eliminations, qualifying, etc. FWIW, I wouldn't have a problem with full pound weight breaks and combining sticks & autos in a large number of areas, which would generate more heads-up runs... which I find totally ironic: a bracket racer accepting such ideas when so many die-hard Stock racers are vehemently against them. I take a broad view of the sport, and consider a lot of things that I think might be better for the sport as a whole, and not things that just benefit "me". But, that's all just my personal opinion, and no one else's.

Dave - Brandon's okay! He may drive a Ford, but he works at a Dodge dealer. :cool:

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Its more like 7-8 under. Ive built several over the years for a local crate motored racer and they all run 7+ under. Thats WITHOUT any funny tricks or streaching the rules. Your correct though.....Unless they have a soft index or are underrated I would guess that any quicker than 8+ or so under have some bogus stuff someplace. Your always going to have some a little quicker because they test, work, and spend BIG MONEY on thier car but this 1.2 and 1.4 under dosent impress me or anyone in the know. Thats dicounting "mine shaft air".

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Curious why there needs to be a Crate Class group. Since every year a new bogus motor is found in the Chevrolet book (as far as factoring) or a new paper Ford, or a Chrysler Nascar version never seen but documented , why wouldnt people be asking to just use a Spec (Crate)motor in regular classes of SS or GT? If it is factored and has specs and could be teched they might be a cheaper "next year motor" when people upgrade or rebuild.
To me the issue of continual "finds" which are underfactored because of inadequate insight from Tech department IS the issue in many of the discussions. Yes I know the "finds" were in the books but..... The problem they cause is an issue, currently the machining rules are the new issue.
Knowing how poorly factoring is handled it would be a bad idea.
Problem is tech bends very far to get every potential entrant happy and paying for the right to compete while actually upsetting 99% of those who have cars, paid and raced last season.
"IMPORTANT" Racers upset but still attending and paying doesnt affect the bottom line. The Economic conditions WILL affect the business but as long as they are the rule makers, changing rule positions will be the norm and upset will continue.
My bet is the new factory hot rods will have an extremely favorable rating to "bait people" to build and enter them.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dick...No one wants "spec motors " .. 70-80% would probably leave the class in a minute...why wont you give it a rest!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I'm sorry Dick but none of this stuff is going to fly. It's a fun thread, but that is all it is. I know you love talking this stuff but talk is all it will ever amount to.

Michael, You have to be honest about IHRA tear downs. You race more IHRA races than any one, and do very well, so logic would dictate that you may be torn down once in awhile. I love IHRA but it has been pretty much run what you brung with them for years.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon, that was the answer in my car, and I'm "only" 5ft-19.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dave, Here's Rockingham Qualifying from last year.
I only see 7 Crate Motor car's in the top 20.(so much for soft HP)
Now let's go to my Racing,
Yeah, I got upset in 03 when they killed Top Stock and got out of Racing,
But Dave, I raced from 1969 to 03 and was burnt out.
I raced NHRA & IHRA every chance I had from Sanair to Miami to Indy to Texas to Baton Rouge.
I Just finished another car and I'll be out a little this year.
Did I start this post, Sure Did, In hopes that NHRA may look at Crate Motor Car's or a GT/Stock.
I didn't start this for a pissing contest,
Build an NHRA car, Why? I live in NC and have 7 or 8 IHRA tracks less than 4 hours from my home.
I just wanted Crate motor's or GT/Stock to be able to cross over.

Leave crates with IHRA and buy or build an NHRA car so you can come play with all of us..
Yeah, Like your stocker is any better than mine, and I had a few !!




1 1305 S/GTD Duane Eiskant, Chester VA, '86 Mustang 10.628 12.20 -1.572
2 1967 G/SA Jim Marshall, Scottsville NY, '80 Corvette 10.933 12.30 -1.367
3 988 M/CM Brandon Peterson, Randleman NC, '95 Mustang11.385 12.75 -1.365
4 2420 A/S Arnold Greene, Matthews NC, '69 Camaro 9.950 11.30 -1.350
5 2089 F/FIA John Livingston, Murfreesboro TN, '91 Cama 11.641 12.95 -1.309
6 9777 C/CM Marvin Strickland Jr., Rowland NC, '87 Cam 9.941 11.25 -1.309
7 2706 W/S Tom Gould, Beaufort SC, '66 Corvair 15.407 16.70 -1.293
8 9224 A/CM Terry Taylor, Lumberton NC, '75 Corvette 9.678 10.95 -1.272
9 1 C/SA Anthony Bertozzi, Ashland VA, '69 Camaro 10.487 11.70 -1.213
10 1781 B/SA Dan Fletcher, Churchville NY, '69 Camaro 10.343 11.55 -1.207
11 9269 R/SA Billy Wilson, Laurens SC, '66 BelAir Wgn 13.148 14.35 -1.202
12 2312 L/S Tom Hemmingston, Concord NC, '66 Chevelle 11.814 13.00 -1.186
13 9510 I/CM Scott Macy, Randleman NC, '78 Volare 10.970 12.15 -1.180
14 2 I/CM Michael Beard, Seagrove NC, '80 Volare 10.976 12.15 -1.174
15 9707 C/SA Mickey Whaley, Kinston NC, '69 Camaro 10.531 11.70 -1.169
16 2318 E/FIA Dennis Pope, Kinston NC, '85 Camaro 11.435 12.60 -1.165
17 3438 AA/SA Harley Day, Dellroy OH, '64 Savoy 9.994 11.15 -1.156
18 10 H/CM Jamie Southards, Shelby NC, '74 Duster 10.845 12.00 -1.155
19 268 G/SA Painter Stevenson, Flowery Branch GA, '69 11.155 12.30 -1.145
20 954 E/CM Richard Alford Jr, Raleigh NC, '68 Camaro 10.407 11.55 -1.143

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I didn't even realize this because I don't really follow crate motor cars that much,but according to your example,are these classes theoretically the same?

E/CM = A/SA
F/CM = B/SA
G/CM = C/SA
H/CM = D/SA
I/CM = E/SA
J/CM = F/SA
.
If they are theoretically the same AND If IHRA and NHRA had the same rules (and they were followed) it might be interesting.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Ken,

I know why you started the post and I think thats fine.. I also know what its like to get burnt out. I also have raced for over 40 years up & down the East coast....
On the number of crates in the top 20 at the last Rockingham race, that was a rare case.
Normally, its 15-16 out of Top 20, you can check back on that... Ken, you make it sound like your the only NHRA racer in The Carolinas... There are many good racers right in your back yard whom built or own NHRA cars to be able to crossover..I do like racing IHRA and have for years, I also never said or think my car is better than anyone's....Check around !!!

Anyway, good luck with your new race car and I knew you were a good racer, saw you run Top Stock years ago... I just don't think we should keep changing the rules to suit a few
racers....Like I said its great that we still have choices on where to race...
* just my own opinion...................End of this conversation.... lets Race....

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Guys,
This has been an interesting discussion but in my opinion the "flavor " of Stock or SS or GT for that matter would be lost if outside motors were allowed in these classes. I have discussed and continue to feel there are TOO MANY classes in Stock and SS for people to chose now. Fewer classes the better, more reason for Class at events, possibly more appeal. Crate motor classes are just that more classes.
I stand by my dissappointment with the low factoring of discovered combinations and the paper cars and etc. I believe it is business decisions which are to blame in most cases. As for the cc,s, valve angles etc the can of worms is already opened and creating more problems not fewer.
My opinion is a movement to limit motors as a back door way of limiting the tech screw ups which come with more decisions and opinions on components and HP specifically could have been better.
Thanks for responses to my questions...
Dick