Re: What to expect
 

While I have been reading this, sometimes I have to chuckle. Take away everything ie; (buttons, two steps, retards-besides the one behind the wheel, blinders, first or worst redlights, blah blah blah blah.
One thing you all are forgetting. The same people that win now, will still continue to win. While a few of you that have never won, will still be on the computer bitching about unfair this and unfair that.
NHRA is not here to make EVERYONE happy. They are trying to make this complicated racing thing somewhat easier to police. Nobody has all the right answers. I, for one, have tried all of this garbage that everyone is argueing about. It is still up the nut behind the wheel to react, whatever spot that is, to cut a light. I would love to download Peter Biondo's concentration level into my head, but that ain't gonna happen. And if I could do that, someone would just say I was cheating because I used a non approved USB cable, and I am CHEATING. GET A LIFE!

Re: What to expect
 

Is there more than one poll on here ?
The one I see shows 46 to keep things as they are, and 60 voting FOR change in one way or the other.
( either no buttons at all, or move them to the pedal ). That seems like more voting for change than not.

Either way, lets remember that out of 1200 + NHRA stockers, there are relatively few on here, and even fewer voting. Take it with a grain of salt. Nobody should tout their statistics untill there is a comprehensive national vote. However that might happen.

Here's what I wonder. How many overall stockers are presently using 2steps. I don't know. I think it's probably about 50/50 using and not. I would like to know what the split really is at present.
I do know that I've had conversations with many drivers that DO use the 2step, and the vast majority say they use it to "keep up with the Jones". There's alot of these guys that really think they should be outlawed. But they do help their driving so they aren't giving them up unless of a rule change. I know a couple of votes on that pole for " no 2step/button " are drivers presently using them.


On another note, I have never grasped the concept of lowering indexes. Fast cars are still fast, slow cars are still slow. There is still a ladder, and nothing changes. Just the numbers. The only real change is alot of slower cars under the index just became bracket cars. Why ?
Or is this a plan to eliminate some stockers ?

On another note, if everything is equal ( the car(s) flogged to it's fullest ), a carb car will never run with a FI car. FI, computer cars are light years ahead of carb cars now. And still evolving. Talk about AHFS problems of the past. This will be a nightmare !





http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...andtheflag.jpg

Re: What to expect
 

new camaro, firebird or corvette LS1 V.S. 1967 camaro 350cu.powerglide heads-up,that sounds fair,HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!,looks like a good time to build a crate motor for my car or build something new.thanks NHRA.

Re: What to expect
 

How do you figure that? I think the LS-1 cars will be up around A, and I don't think a 350/Glide Camaro runs A. So how do you figure the heads up?

Re: What to expect
 

Bob,
Your numbers are correct and so are the ones that I stated as written. I said that I wanted a change and so do most of the racers responding to the poll. Honestly I don't know how the rule will be written related to stick cars, but either of the new options on Kenny's poll are my choice.

Admin,
Less than 50% of the racers voting in Kenny's poll want the rule to stay the same, so as I said before,the majority want a change. I don't think I am being biased at all. I won't be taking anything personally.

Dave

Re: What to expect
 

I have a better idea than knocking two tenths off. Whoever goes -1.10 or further under the index gets an automatic 5 to 10 hp on Monday for their engine/body style. Then you can move up a class, so there ya go: YOU JUST GOT YOUR TWO TENTHS OFF THE INDEX AND YOU DIDNT PISS IN MY POOL.

Re: What to expect
 

Dave, The Poll like most Polls can be skewed any way you like, Bottom line is most voted to keep 2-steps the difference is what to do with the buttons.

Re: What to expect
 

hello pare and cheers from ol JIM BEAMm if ur on my bumper ur behind thats good you know i started this what to expect and got no stars and len got 5 this is BS its discrimination im gonna sue somebody, i still think the chick behind the flag is a girl......

Re: What to expect
 

O.K Alan Roeherich,67 camaro/glide against a LT-1,still not right,I thought the LS-1 could run the 10 lb weight break,when the fi cars were with carb. cars LS-1 could run E or F/SA,I wasnt sure if and or how much HP they have recieved since then.my 67camaro 295/350 runs in E/SA so all LT-1 cars in C/FIA will be heads up with me do you feel thats is fair?

Re: What to expect
 

quit your whining...

len only stated his results sent to nhra .com...
and MAYBE the technical department should have some say in the matter ??

and ... i get bob shaws cadillac heads up ... loads of fun trying to win class next year

thanks len for bringing us up to date

jack mccarthy

Re: What to expect
 

Jack I am not whining,I am saying right is right and wrong is wrong.

Re: What to expect
 

Mike Mayhew,

Very good post and I agree with you,its only the tip of the iceberg....NHRA, will come up with a final count and that's it...I still think its less than 25% using 2 steps and the total vote will tell the real picture, not these special worded polls... Time will tell, too bad for button sales ??

Dave Casey,

You are right on and polls can say what ever you want them to say... They are just something to talk about, its the NHRA poll that will count the most...So we can discuss and argue all we want but NHRA has all the cards... There are many more people against buttons than you think, they just aren't saying it out loud...... 2008 will be an interesting year......

Dave...1033/stock(RV-455)

Re: What to expect
 

We have to run plenty of cars that are poorly factored, and have plenty of advantages over us.The LT-1 cars that will run in A/B are faster than we are, at least some of them are. I guess we'll just have to get busy and make some HP over the winter. I always heard that's why they called it racing, and why everyone didn't do it. NOTHING they do is going to satisfy
EVERYONE. That's just how things work out. There are several combinations we have to race that probably should carry more weight. It's always been that way, there will ALWAYS be faster cars in EVERY class.

Re: What to expect
 

Question for all you people not liking the dropping of the index by 2 tenths.....When was the last time this was done? Im guessing its been a long long time and technology and equipment has got a lot better since then.

Re: What to expect
 

I agree with Mayhew...... I think the no button deal will change things more then people think. You'll still need that one lucky round to get by...VERY tough to be ON for 6 or 7 rounds! I just thought of something....of the Div. champs last year how many of them use 2-steps? I know the Div. 3 champ did & the world champ did....how about the rest of the country? (I'm talking NHRA)

Re: What to expect
 

my index has been 11.30 since i started i remember bearly being able to run the index when i started and now several years later and more money than i want to admit. i,m 6 tenths under. over the last year i,ve saved and did some things that hopefuly will get me a couple more. now because of a swipe of the pen i,m right were i was last year. mean while there are a select group that are capeable of running 1 to 1.1 under with more left they have shown this when they had to. all this drop in index has done is given them the saftey factor of not tripping the ahfs. it would of made more since to drop the ahfs to 1 second to correct these under factored cars but as it sits now there will be a group of 10.40 to 10.60 cars and a couple of 10.00-10.10 cars the class is ss/ja the stats dont lie it would be nice to see a poll simply stated drop indexes 2 tenths or leave alone

Re: What to expect
 

Well our division 5 champ last year didnt use a 2-step he foot braked and from the looks of it the odds on favorite to win it this year is a stick car...interesting

Re: What to expect
 

Agreed.

There are two questions in this poll, and to be fair, to get a true read on what racers think, they should be seperated. Question 1: Should two step be allowed? Yes or No. Question 2: Assuming two steps are allowed, should we allow a button or just pedal activation. Button and pedal allowed or Pedal only.

This is where it started the confusion. There are two questions, but you are allowed to pick only one answer, just making the results very easily read many different ways. And they are not seperated clearly.

Go back to the original question posted on NHRA.com on Sept. 10, 2007. It states:

In July of this year, the NHRA Tech Department stated that it would begin the process of reviewing and considering only selected mechanical-type buttons for use in Super Stock and Comp Eliminator. While NHRA will soon release finalized acceptance parameters for the mechanical buttons, the use of any such buttons in Stock eliminator is now under review.

After NHRA announced its intent to restrict the use of buttons to only selected mechanical types in Super Stock and Comp Eliminator, many Stock category racers have voiced their opinions to do away with the two-step button in Stock completely or permit the use of a two step button activated by the clutch or brake pedal only. Therefore, the NHRA Tech Department is asking current Stock Eliminator racers to submit their opinions on the following issues:

1- Eliminate the use of buttons and two-steps in Stock Eliminator

2- Allow the use of buttons and two-steps as pedal activated only

An approved button would still be permitted in either case for use with NHRA acceptable line-locks only.

Racers are asked to submit their opinions to racerinput@nhra.com.

I can see why there is frustration with the results, some want two steps but pedal only, others don't want them at all, some want the two step with buttons. These questions should have been asked in two parts.

Re: What to expect
 

WHAT TO EXPECT............................................ .................................................. ...

Two tenths gone, alot of cars gone that were close to their index..................................

Fast cars are still safe and no fear of the AHFS triggers.......................................... ......

Combine classes, less classes, less singles, more one sided heads ups, same crappy payout..........

Tech still has their hands tied, AHFS needs alot of work.............................................. ..................

All this and smaller fields if you have enough grading points............................................ ................

Way to go NHRA

Thank you to all you whinning buttholes that brought this about

Ron Ortiz
U/SA To all you buttholes, I hope you get it there.

Re: What to expect
 

I agree with Ortiz & Polhill. Adding two tenths to all the indexes will scare away new recruits and budget minded racers. Not everyone wants to build a rear bumper scraping super fast $50K A, B, or C car. Some can only afford the "slow" cars, so why punish them.

This will sound hypocritical for me to say since I'm ranting here, but I wish NHRA would quit making changes based on what's posted in these forums and polls that only a small percentage participate in.

There, I said it.

Re: What to expect
 

I have said this before and will say it again, If you can't afford to build a stock class car that will run at least 50 under then you should save untill you can or go run brackets at your local track. Some people play basketball and some can't because the Rims to high, should we lower the Rim so everybody can compete, I don't think so. There's always a class to race, pick the one you can afford and leave the rest alone.

Re: What to expect
 

On the basketball thing I think all them tall guys should have to run on thier knees, the basket's fine where it's at.
Ok Len not meaning to stir the pot or make things tooo confusing but I am running the OEM computer in my car that came with a computer shifted transmission and the decision is made to eliminate e-shift will it only apply to th aftermarket units or all computer shifted transmissions. On a sidebar my V/SA car with a turbo 200 was always shifted automaticaly by adjusting the factory TAV and for you na-sayers that think it will slow the car down recent second party testing has proven it to be a very efficient way to do things. Should be legal as it's the OEM way to shift the darn thing.

Re: What to expect
 

I sent the following to Len tonight - it sums up my opinion on this issue. I think the tail is wagging the dog on the two-step question.......



Dear Mr. Imbrogno,

I read your recent commentary on the ClassRacer.com forum regarding possible rule changes for 2008. I can't say that I'm in favor of some of them; in particular the issue of the two-steps in Stock Eliminator. You posted the following in your remarks on the upcoming changes thread:

"Two-steps: While NHRA is still receiving input from NHRA racers on this issue, at the present time
55% of the 256 racers that have so far voiced their opinions want two-steps to be banned in Stock
across the board. Yes, this class could very well become a foot brake class.

As always, your input is welcomed. "

This year there have been 1031 racers that have participated in Stock in NHRA events in the seven Divisions. By your own figures above only 256 have responded to the question about two-step usage. Of that number, 55%, or approximately 140 people have been in favor of a ban. It's possible that some of those respondents may not even be NHRA registered Stock Eliminator participants. That means that at best 13.5% of the total number of Stock racers are in favor of banning the two-step. That hardly constitutes a mandate, and in fact is likely just a representative sampling of a small group of racers for whom this a cause de jour.

Before NHRA takes action on a rule change such as banning the two-step I would hope that they would employ a more accurate method of sampling racer input. I would suggest that no action be taken until such a process is put in place. Attaching a questionaire to Tech Cards at 2008 Lucas Oil Events would be a great way to gather data from those racers who are actually supporting NHRA Sportsman racing. I have extensive experience in representative governance in the workplace as well as a BA degree in Organizational Communication. If I can be of assistance in any way in helping to ensure that a representative sampling is taken before any rule changes are made I would be happy to help.

Please contact me if you have any questions or comments. I appreciate you taking the time to post on the website and keep the racing community informed.

Regards,

Carl Battis
720 B/SA

Re: What to expect
 

"Two tenths gone, alot of cars gone that were close to their index"

what are we talking about here? i checked most qualifying and could only find a couple of cars at most at every race that would have a problem running the "new" index...some are names you know dont have to be down there if they dont want too,some are that breaks something,some may run a stocker in superstock..etc. on the other hand 36 is more than -1.00 this weekend at atco...what does it accomplish?with 2 thents gone it would be 6-7...then it would mean something.. i also think it's fair to the superstockers to tighten up the indexes,now a lot of stockers take there place in Nationals were only superstocks are allowed,but they cant do the reverse!

Re: What to expect
 

carl nhra needs you! you could be the racers liaison!

Re: What to expect
 

Apparently NHRA is choosing to base their poll data like a good American democratic choice. You people who think that all 1000+ members have to be heard from before a decision should be made are forgetting that in America we choose our national leaders with less than a 20% participation of the people elligible to vote. Maybe the ones who have expressed their opinions by voting are the only ones who care?

Reading between the lines, if you look at the way NHRA has structured their poll, change is coming whether you want it or not. And I suspect the reason is to make policing that area of electronics easier. Like has been said many times by many people in this thread, regardless of any change in the rule, it will be as fair for everyone as the current rule and the people who are successful under the current rule will be successful with the changes too.

Re: What to expect
 

Question. Won't the AHFS will give HP back to the slower "Combo" cars with a low or slow qualifing average?


Will Stocker Heads pass a Superstock pouring for CC's? If they were torn down as a superstocker.

Re: What to expect
 

Here's a history lesson for ya...

In 2008 the EFI classes were put back in with carb cars. I think it happened mostly because one individual campaigned really hard for less classes so there would be more heads up runs. Then there were those who wanted AA classes so they could race their '60's factory racecars.

You were warned to watch what you wish for....it just might come true.

Well it all came true and look what we've got now.

Re: What to expect
 

Reads just like the recent threads! Lots if the same guys taking the same positions.
Interesting.

Re: What to expect
 

I love it

Re: What to expect
 

Very interesting re-reading these old posts. Maybe a couple years from now someone will bring the "I'm quitting because of the new cars" type threads back to the top. Either that or threads with the attitude of "This is a performance based eliminator so we need more heads up racing." Stay tuned to the future to see what happens.

Please make sure the "archives" of Class Racer always remain accessible so we can check out the past to see how we got to where we are at.

Re: What to expect
 

What this thread has brought back to me is what has happened to Len Imbrogno ? Has anyone heard from him or know what he's up to ? Len was our friend during his tenure .....

Re: What to expect
 

The last that I knew he was working for one of the TF teams.

Re: What to expect
 

Not sure but I thought he was gonna work for Kenny Bernstein--no idea what/where he is now tho

Re: What to expect
 

I'm not so sure about him being our friend. He pushed for mufflers in S/SS.

Re: What to expect
 

He did very well playing the cards that were dealt to him ......................

Re: What to expect
 

Last I heard he was working for Bernstein.

Re: What to expect
 

He's still Kenny's General Manager for the Race Team.

Re: What to expect
 

Len and I worked for a year to revamp FWD after Compton wanted it eliminated. Len's communication skills were excellent and he worked very hard to save the FWD classes. His job was a constant up hill battle and I'm really surprised he stayed as long as he did! NHRA lost one of the best men they ever had when he left. Jim