CLASS RACER FORUM - HP Reduction Request

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Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Ours (Post 528925)

Not real computer savy that is why I never log on. I to have raced stock for over 40 years on a very limited budget. Haven't race since 2007 when my son passed. Why not do away with the heads up race except for when the exact same combo is pair. You may get a few more racers that way. I know there are a lot of fast D E F & G combos that I certainly can't compete against. Not wanting to start an argument just want to help e little guys.

Mike, I would suggest that you start a new thread on this subject , and then put your fire suit on .
Please hurry with that.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim morgan (Post 528933)

The NHRA Technical Department recently made changes to the Class Guide.

looks like letter is working for some

The hp changes are just cleanup to get some consistency from model to model and engine application. None of the changes are necessarily new.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim morgan (Post 528933)

The NHRA Technical Department recently made changes to the Class Guide.

1977 Buick Regal 350 170/287 change to 350 170/270

1977 Chev Chevelle 350 170/287 change to 350 170/270 auto

1977 Chev Chevelle 350 170 270 change to 350 170/275 man

1970 Dodge Challenger 440 390/400 change to 440 390/382

1964 Mopar 330, Savoy 426 425/415 change to 426 425/405

looks like letter is working for some

Yes, Jim. This is how the current system is supposed to work.

My reason for getting involved with this is to see more consistency in the process.
For instance , if a guy has a car already that he'd like to race, and it fell within the guidelines put forth, he could just submit a form and then start working on it. By the half year, it would appear in the guide, at the new reduced horsepower rating.

Also , in recent years , we saw just about every 302 2v reduced in every body style, by 30-40 horsepower , in some cases.
Meanwhile another guy with a 305 2bbl. Chevy , in a certain body and year, has to fight for 6 mos., just to get 4 hp off it.
Fair is fair ...20 % off for every one , or for no one.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Dwight, I am not a hero, I am a Super Hero complete with cape, tights, and a mask. Picture that!!

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton (Post 528941)

Dwight, I am not a hero, I am a Super Hero complete with cape, tights, and a mask. Picture that!!

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...ainBleach2.jpg

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton (Post 528941)

Dwight, I am not a hero, I am a Super Hero complete with cape, tights, and a mask. Picture that!!

OK Jeff, just what would your Super Power be? If ya don't mind me asking.

Faster than a speeding Plymouth Cricket?
More powerful than a beer fart?
Able to leap tall 30 packs in a single bound?
Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! AACK! It's a bird.
(yeah, I'm a child of the 50s)

Re: HP Reduction Request

Now back to reality, IMHO, I think that it would be interesting to hear from some of the Nostalgia guys that are lurking around on here. If your stuff were de-factored to get it competitive would you run in Stock Eliminator?

Re: HP Reduction Request

Wasn't someone running a '62 Impala on the east coast a few years ago?
Any others come to mind?

Maybe a way to add the nostalgia and car club fans to our shrinking group, if only NHRA cared

Warlings Pontiac just came to mind

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randall Klein (Post 528955)

Wasn't someone running a '62 Impala on the east coast a few years ago?

Denny Ford, I think that it's a BelAir.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Now just suppose, if one of these "defactored" engines start knocking the doors down, are they going to put hp back on? If you give to one the rest will bitch, especially if it's in their class.

Re: HP Reduction Request

[QUOTE=Randall Klein;528955]Wasn't someone running a '62 Impala on the east coast a few years ago
Any others come to mind??

Denny Ford and Ray Whitney

Mike A114
P/SA

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 528924)

The 62 409 was actually 409 hp rated.
The 63 was 425, with not much difference in specs, if any.
There's a perfect example for Dwight's previous post .
The 62 has been reduced through the current system, but nowhere near enough.
The single 4 , 380 /365 hp needs about 65 more off it ,with that small carburetor.

Thanks, Mark
I thought two 4 barrels made it 425HP
Mike

Re: HP Reduction Request

Alright, let's kick the dinosaur in the posterior and see if it wakes up.In the realm of 409's, the '62 engine had straight down 2 1/2" exhaust manifolds. It had a camshaft,#3830690 that had around .510 lift. it called for a valve adjustment lash of .018"on the intakes, .030" on the exhausts, mechanical lifters. At that setting,it sounded like an early Z-28 Camaro. Manual transmission only, probably 99% were 4 speeds. It had an intake that ended in 881, and the two Carter AFB's were D series as to their size. The '62 engine was rated at 409 horsepower at 6000 RPM, the single 4 barrel engine at 380 horsepower had a larger 4 barrel AFB than the dual 4 barrel. The 63 400-425 horse engines had the same size carbs as the '62,the 690 cam was carried over until mid year 64, that engine was internally identical to the 62 engines. The only difference was that the 63-64 engine had a neat set of cast iron header type exhaust manifolds. They also had chrome valve covers, dip stick,and air cleaner. These engines had bunch of torque at 4000 RPM, but the factory horsepower ratings were pretty close to what these engines could make, although good tuning and good headers helped a bunch. The '62 cars with lower factoring would be the car to build. A really well used properly built 409 with a pair of quads could realistically make 460- 500 horsepower. Much more than that would require re-engineering, but it's doable. Get a set of those Edelbrock heads approved and start with that!

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jones (Post 528961)

Thanks, Mark
I thought two 4 barrel`s made it 425HP
Mike

Not in '62...those were 409/409's. The '63-'64 dual quads are 409/425'S.

Denny Ford races a C/S '62 409/409.

Re: HP Reduction Request

The '62 409 horse and 380 horse engines were exactly the same as all '63 400 horse and 425 horse engines, except for the exhaust manifolds and the chrome parts. The '64 400 and 409 horse engines had a mid year change,actually mid November 63, where a higher lift camshaft was installed, number 3837735, and the heads were 583 castings. The only difference in the 690 head available in 62-mid year 64, and the 583 head was that the valve spring pockets were deeper to accommodate taller springs and more valve lift. The heads and the cam had to go together-putting a .540" or so lift cam in the earlier heads with the shorter installed height springs would coil bind the valve train resulting in rocker arm breakage and flat cams. Still,the horsepower ratings were 400 for the single 4 barrel, and 425 for the dual 4 barrel engine. The 409/425 was not available in '65. the 340 horse and the 400 horse was the last of the 409's, only about 2800 or so total 409 engines were sold in 65 Chevys.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jones (Post 528961)

Thanks, Mark
I thought two 4 barrel`s made it 425HP
Mike

Good friend of mine bought a new 1962 409 hp 409" 4 speed, Biscayne 2 Dr sedan. The '63 425 hp cars were no faster. Same carbs, etc. His '62 came with two head gaskets on each side. Little book that came with it telling you to remove the extra gaskets to race it.
Single head gaskets, nice fenderwell headers, Hurst shifter, 4.56 gears, slicks, he never did get that car into the 12s. But, he drove it like he was afraid we would tear it up. We street raced a lot then, I don't remember a 425 hp car outrunning him. I think the '62 was lighter?
The 409 409" came out in 1961. You had to "be somebody" to buy one. Local guy Jerry Weiderman had the only one around here. Jerry's claim to fame was winning the 1957 NHRA Nationals, which was held at Oklahoma City for a couple of years. Jerry won that with a red & white 1957 210 2dr sedan with the 283 hp fuel injected 283" engine, column shifted 3 speed. 4 speeds were not actually available in anything but a Corvette then.

Re: HP Reduction Request

didn't a guy from new mexico run one of these? Bobby ?

Re: HP Reduction Request

Get ready for another extra long Billy thread...

Re: HP Reduction Request

Achilles heel was the center driveshaft support, the rear and driveshaft. Friends 64 had two or three rears set up, extra bearing supports and drive shafts. Running on bias ply tires. That's the one reason I liked Chrysler, they put strong drivetrains to go with the big engines. That 348-409 was the best looking engine Chevy ever made. The 61 348 should be a good combo I would think. Had the use of one for a summer and would fly.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Many,many moons ago,I had a good friend in Danville,New Jersey.He got a '61 Impala with a 250 horse 348 and a factory 3 speed.Along with that he got a wild hair to make a NHRA Stock Eliminator car out of it. It fit in O/S. 250 horsepower, 15 pounds plus driver. I think the index was a 13.30 or so.He got a good 4 jet, a tricked out 4 speed, 4.88's with a spool for the original rear end, somebody's good axles, and he flogged it into shape.He told me it went a lot of 13'0's,and a few 12.90's. This was in 1980-82,a three tenths under pass was a big deal then. He said that it was the combo that shouldn't have worked,but it did.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 528938)

Meanwhile another guy with a 305 2bbl. Chevy , in a certain body and year, has to fight for 6 mos., just to get 4 hp off it.

Or a 2bbl. 351C

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 528816)

I am posting a copy of a letter that was sent to the NHRA over a year ago by Dwight, Yac and I. We received no response at the time from them so I am posting it here hoping for a better response from the Racing Community. Please, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
OBTW, I can't take any credit for the actual writing of the letter, that credit should go to Dwight!

Dear NHRA,
This letter is to propose for consideration a change or addition in policy concerning Stock and Super Stock Eliminators with the purpose of encouraging participation by current non-participants. While these suggestions are not meant to be a panacea to “cure all the ills”, there are indications and evidence to support an argument that they could increase participation. While this is primarily pointed toward Stock Eliminator, the principle could be applied to Super Stock as well.

Let us lay out some facts and descriptions of characteristics of racing in Stock Eliminator that are relevant. Consider the following:

Building a competitive Stock Eliminator car is neither inexpensive nor easy in the current environment. Newer factory produced race car combinations are on the upper level of the cost to build race cars.Changes in technology away from rear wheel drive vehicles have reduced the choices of competitive combinations to older cars. Most of the current sets of older competitive race car combinations have been refined to the point that the most technologically advanced cars set the power ratings and thus the standard of performance. “Technologically advanced” equates to expensive and less attractive. Older car bodies are being removed from use for recycling thus reducing the choices for race car combinations. Now, I would like to point out some related behavior in Stock Eliminator racing.

When Paul Wong, or whoever the initiator, got the ’86 Chevrolet pickup accepted into the classification pool, everybody knew that it was a very favorable combination because of the power rating assigned to it. Now there are at least three of those that are being raced and their performance is noted and followed throughout the Stock Eliminator community. Two are being raced by people who were not racing before.

When the full sweep of defactoring of the 1973-1979 Ford 302 2-bbl engines took place, the Stock Eliminator racers recognized the ability for car combinations using those engines to be competitive. As a result, the participation for Ford 302 2-bbl combinations grew from possibly two to now having eight cars in competition across the country, with more on the way. All of those cars except the original two are being raced by new racers.

Bob Shaw has worked to come up with several race car combinations that have been very competitive because of their favorable power ratings. In several cases, he ended up selling his cars to people who wanted to race competitively but could not afford the expense of high tech racing. Bob’s cars have been affordable and thus he is personally responsible for three new racers over the years who have purchased his cars.The major defactoring of the 318 Chrysler 2-bbl engines that occurred several years ago has been responsible for several cars built that would not have been built before.

The logical truth is that a car that will run the index supposedly has the potential to win, but the truth is that it rarely happens. Heads-up races and changing environmental conditions require that a racer be able to perform relative to the index with the majority of the field. Also, the ego part of the racing experience plays a major part in people’s inspiration to race. Since Stock Eliminator carries the image of a performance category, the ability to be able to run under the index in whatever class is a major factor for most racers. In the examples cited above, most of the possible combinations would have been able to run the index when properly prepared. But the attractiveness of a stellar performance is a major factor in the now popularity of those race cars. Also, if each competitor represented in the above examples were interviewed, every one would state that the favorable power rating was the encouragement to build their cars.

So what this letter is about is to propose a change in policy for NHRA regarding the defactoring of certain engines that have never been raced before due to an unattractive power rating. The hope would be to add racers to the Stock Eliminator racing pool and thus help NHRA to increase participation, promote championship drag racing at the grassroots level, and to give some racers an opportunity to participate in class racing that seems to be further and further out of reach. The implementation of this proposal will result in lots of discussion and concern within the racing community. However, the basis of ultimate support for making it acceptable is that the AHFS will eventually level any competitive advantage that would result, much as it does now with the factory race cars and is doing with the combinations mentioned in the example above.

Billy Nees, Mark Yacavone and I have been immersed in Stock Eliminator drag racing for over 40 years each. We have each been intrigued with ferreting out untried, competitive combinations during our racing years and especially those combinations that could be built and raced on a budget. We have collaborated on this proposal with the hopes of increasing interest and participation in Stock Eliminator. We would each be behind the effort to promote it, defend it and encourage it throughout the racing community. We also volunteer our opinions and advice for any considerations that the Tech Department might have as purely professional and analytical advice. We ask for your consideration for this proposal.
Sincerely,

Billy Nees

Dwight Southerland

Mark Yacavone

Proposal One: NHRA Tech Department will allow a racer to request a reduction in the power rating of any engine in the technical bulletins and classification guide, even when the engine has not been raced at an NHRA Championship Event and the racer does not even have a race car that uses the engine in the request. A form would be available on the NHRA Racer web site and the status of all requests would be publicized on a page on that site to reduce duplication of requests. If multiple requests were submitted for the same engine, the first would be the only one considered.

Basic Guidelines for the request:
1) Engine does not have a history of being raced or has not performed better than -.4 sec against the current index.
2) Has to be listed in the class guide and tech bulletins.
3) Maximum reduction 20% of current listed power rating or to the OEM listed and advertised rating, whichever is a higher rating.
4) This is a one-time deal only.* Once a reduction is granted, then the AHFS takes over.
5) Request has to be in writing and the engine clearly defined.
6) Reduction must apply across all manufacturer-models that use the engine. No one-off rating for a particular body style or model.
7) Engine cannot currently have an assigned factor in another manufacturer-model.
8) Engine has to be a unique combination based on some critical component part. For example, a Chev 327 300hp engine from a Corvette that has not been factored could not be reduced to 240 when a 327 275hp engine from a Camaro has the same specs but carries an NHRA-assigned factor.

Optional Proposal Two: NHRA Technical Department will reduce all pre-1971 engine combinations that have no current NHRA-assigned power rating by 20% and reduce all 1972 and later engines to their OEM-assigned rating if the engine has no current NHRA-assigned power rating.

Golly Billy, myself and God bless Richard Mullenhardt R. I. P.
certainly have race before.. For along time.
That is just not accurate about 2 of the 3 86 chevy
pick-up 350 combo trucks being people who never raced before.
God bless you and your rambling provacative posts..
While not from division 1, the land of Fletchers and Bionodo's ..and Nees. The folks in division 5 are still part of
NHRA out here.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Guys, let's try to keep this thread down to the Reader's Digest size, and on topic, okay?

You know, just in case someone from NHRA decides to read through it.

Thanks

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coleydog (Post 528959)

Now just suppose, if one of these "defactored" engines start knocking the doors down, are they going to put hp back on? If you give to one the rest will bitch, especially if it's in their class.

Won't the AHFS take care of that?

Look, if anyone wants to imagine all the negatives that can happen because of this hp reduction, go for it. However, if ten new participants get to experience the fun, the comradery, the "Stocker community" and the thrills of the competitive racing we all have, we will all be better off and stronger. The purpose here is not to create a bunch of dime-rocket index killers (NHRA has shown to be plenty capable of doing that on their own). The intent is to try to attract more racers and expand on one of the core values of the Stock Eliminator category, showcasing the variety of American automobile history.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland (Post 528995)

Look, if anyone wants to imagine all the negatives that can happen because of this hp reduction, go for it. However, if ten new participants get to experience the fun, the comradery, the "Stocker community" and the thrills of the competitive racing we all have, we will all be better off and stronger. The purpose here is not to create a bunch of dime-rocket index killers (NHRA has shown to be plenty capable of doing that on their own). The intent is to try to attract more racers and expand on one of the core values of the Stock Eliminator category, showcasing the variety of American automobile history.

Wow Dwight, I read that with a lump in my throat and a tear on my cheek!

Re: HP Reduction Request

I think its an excellent idea.
20% reduction;
351W or M @ 230hp = 184hp
400M @ 240 = 192hp
300FI @ 190 = 152hp (coincidence was rated at 155hp with carb, good start point)
302 93 truck@ 215 = 172 (f series most sold truck, tell me 172hp wouldn't bring them out!)
460 @ 300 = 240hp

I think this idea is awesome, as soon as they're built and out there, then the factoring can begin. But, they only get factored if they hit the trigger, you can have guys build a combo, race it at -.500 all day long and enjoy the sport. Yes they might lose a heads up, at that point maybe they'll step it up, but they are still out there. If a killer combo is built, again, the trigger will be hit and they'll be awarded their present.

Love the idea, definitely get more cars out!

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland (Post 528995)

All well and good what you said, but I try to look at both ends, good and bad, all of that comes into the equation before any decision is made.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coleydog (Post 529016)

All well and good what you said, but I try to look at both ends, good and bad, all of that comes into the equation before any decision is made.

Believe me, I do too. But considering that the current class guide likely has several hundred index killers in it, even if the hp reduction move will add to that list the cars will have to be built before anyone gets concerned. I don't see many of the very capable cars that are currently in the class guide being built. If creating the opportunity for a lot of older cars to be competitive causes new cars to be built, that's way more important that worrying about them being a 'threat'. If they get built by new folks, we have expanded Stock Eliminator and that is the goal. If they get built by current racers, we have generated some new excitement and that is the goal. If they spur some 'retired' racers to come back out, then we have re-engaged some bystanders and that is the goal. The goal is to grow Stock Eliminator and make it fun for as many as possible.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Let's hope it works then

Re: HP Reduction Request

Most 6 cyl cars are rated higher than some V-8's now.
Great idea to get out diverse and older makes for sure.
Some folks leave the stands when stock is called because they
don't want to see a line of Camaros.

Goodluck w/nhra

Ron.

Re: HP Reduction Request

You're so right Ron, check out any v6 or inline 6 ford in the truck section. The inline 300 is at 190hp, I tried to get it lowered last year and was denied. Look at the 302 in another truck at 215, which has approved rods/pistons/etc there is no comparison.

20% would take it to 152, it was originally at 155 with a carb and no doubt will make more than that with FI, but it would be incentive to build it. I would suspect after being hit (maxed out) it would end up around 175-180. Cubic $$$ will only take it so far, I don't see it ever hitting 190 or more.

The 2bbl 302 got some new cars built, but have they "took over the world" like some on here predicted? No, it was a good "proof in concept" of the idea and it worked. More cars were built and the ones that were pushed hard were corrected...kinda exactly like a win-win right??

I really like the idea.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by amxron (Post 529059)

Before I started racing again, I started going to some national events to watch my old friend Mike Edwards run Pro Stock. I would go stay in the stands to watch some friends run Stock & Super Stock. When the fuel cars finished, the stands would empty. I asked several people leaving "Why don't you watch these?" Every time they would answer "Too slow", not one time did anybody mention a particular kind of car. Always just "Too slow". Guessing not enough noise or 300 MPH.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 529068)

Ed, I was at Vegas last fall, and watched the folks file out of the stands when the Pro Stockers came out. Whole different generation of fans, I guess.
It's almost like there's two NHRAs now, and they don't seem to care much about ours.
Don't mean to go o/t here.

Re: HP Reduction Request

You are right Mark. There is whole different fan base out there. Most of the people that go to the National events are fans of the BIG CIRCUS. Look at the crowd at a Divisional event - almost no one in the stands. Last year at the Divisional at Pacific Raceways I think I counted about 100 people. I can almost guarantee that many of those, if not all, were friends of the racers.

The lower class cars don't have fan base and so us diehards can sit anywhere we want to photograph the cars or just watch from wherever we want. I am usually by the starting line, but that's just me.

If lowering the H.P. on several cars gets more built, COOL. Unfortunately most people don't understand the class cars, like Stock. Top Sportsman, Top Dragster and the Super classes is where most of the interest is now. I still love STOCK and SUPER STOCK so watching these "slow" cars is a definite thrill for me.

So good luck in any attempt to get more cars out there. It will be a win for me and the other fans of these cars.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Maybe 25% watch Pro Stock, and that 25% won't watch us. No Pro Mod, no Top Dragster, etc. They only want to watch Top Fuel & Funny Car. And, listen to them talk. They don't know anything about those. They do know where the coldest beer vendor is.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 529068)

In my opinion any aspect of class of cars racing can and should be promoted to create excitement . Everyone knows NHRA has done nothing to promote any interest in Stock and Super Stock ever . Alan Reiheart has been doing a great job talking about different makes of cars when he announces as well as other announcers . He does a great job announcing but NHRA corp has done nothing to make our class of cars exciting I suspect there are many ways that Stock and Super Stock can be promoted more in NHRA fans eyes but this has not happened yet . Also as the number of Pros goes down NHRA will need other exciting ways to push in the racing arena Stock and Super Stock could and should be one of the most exciting forms of racing to watch all it needs it Promotion

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Kennedy (Post 529096)

Don, Start a new thread, or bring up one of your old ones, before this one gets too far off course again. Thanks.
I've got a few thoughts for later on.

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Kennedy (Post 529096)

Don please g back to sleep. P.T. Barnum himself couldn't get rumps in the seats to watch sportsman racing.
The only way to salvage what's left is for the IDIOTS running the show is to slow down the fuel cars,making running a fuel team cheaper, to get more cars out there. Make the current F/S cars the new Pro Stock. Books match races (4 T/F. 4 F/C, 4 P/S) into divisionals. Leave the motorcycles and dumb *** snow mobiles and any other
non class eliminator catogories home. It's not an over night deal but something has to change.
Sorry if some out there are offended by my suggestions but the train is headed off the track, something has to change.

Re: HP Reduction Request

I've usually heard the announcer tell fans ( just after fuelers ) to head to the pits for autographics, and I believe for tee shirt and food sales, revenue NHRA desires more than the races going on

Just follow the money

Re: HP Reduction Request

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randall Klein (Post 529132)

I've heard that too. We aren't fast enough to impresse people that are just there for the noise and 300 MPH speeds. If you sit in the stands and talk to some of them, most don't really know much about cars.