Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Todd amen

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Bill Jenkins engines were massively modified.
Hardly warmed over!
Custom Tunnel Rams which look like todays COPOs.
The Cylinder Heads were cut and welded together.
Special Alloy Pistons..Rods...cams and stable rocker systems.
Systems to reduce parasitic drag such as dry sumps.
Stuff we all can buy right off the shelf!
The 327 cuin was about the largest SBC engine to make power/weigh with back in those days.
No magic because the principles to make power then the same today.

One exception; the Big Three used a clean sheet of paper to incorporate all the best stuff developed in the past.
Even that stuff is not perfect enough to get another half second of power.
Super chargers and turbos were after thoughts.
Today they are integral as and entire designed package.
Supercharged B/G cars with huge Superchargers are today's Supercharged Super Stockers.

Just with 40-50 years of technology packaged and reclassified!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

So modified heads are the only way to make power? The engines are not sold completely blueprinted it is still a manufactured product. it's made like that so owners/engine builders can finish the engine anyway they see fit within the rules. Same thing that has been happening since the early 60's

There is no other way to improve a combo? Tuning, testing ect? Just do the heads and let it rip?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

The cylinder heads are also available unported and raw.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

I would think clarity of the article would help. I reread the article and title of article and could not find the words "building a factory stock shootout engine." Sounds minor but would clear up this confusion about allowing heads to be ported with a cc max because NHRA can not police it in stock.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

I never mentioned heads, or any other part(s). You said "These cars were build in a max effort capacity to begin with by a company that has every resource." and "The engines are not sold completely blueprinted it is still a manufactured product. it's made like that so owners/engine builders can finish the engine anyway they see fit within the rules."

Which is it?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

That kinda depends on which side of the rules you want to walk on, doesn't it?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Not necessarily, I think max effort and the performance that comes with it is possible without crossing any lines regarding rules, but that's just my definition.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

I mean head design, materials used like Ti valves and retainers. Cranks, rods, and other special parts.

I guess is what I'm trying to say is that the CNC program that is used to profile the heads I'm sure has been researched and pretty close to the best you can buy. IMHO.

I think unless you have spent time with one of these engines you don't realize how good the parts are that used in these engines.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

These cars are all certainly "stock eliminators"!!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

And yet a company that builds racing engines prefers to mill the intake surface and change the port..... Things that make you go Hmmmm!!!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Every resource yes but they don't use many of them on the factory drag cars. There's no business case to do so. They all do a great job but by no means are they doing even a fraction of what they could do if they really wanted to maximize their efforts.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

I've seen inside a few, whether good parts/execution were used is likely a matter of opinion, to each their own.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

For purely philosophical considerations, consider the following points.

• For a car-engine combination to be raced in NHRA “Stock” eliminator, they make the rules. Generally, it is assumed that the car has to be built by a manufacturer that is recognized by NHRA and that the specifications for the car and engine are provided to and accepted by the NHRA tech department. It is also assumed that eligible combinations are manufactured in sufficient quantity and available to the general public so that it fits some definition of being a “production” car. These assumptions are leftovers from the origins of the “Stock” category in the 1950s when the only cars were sold at dealerships and it was obvious what a “stock” car was and what it was not. Even then, however, there was some controversy with such models as the 1953-54 Hudson Jet with the Hornet twin-carb engine, the 1953 Buick Riviera, the 1957 Pontiac Bonneville with fuel injection, the 1955 Studebaker President Speedster and others. Fast forward to today’s selections and some of our purist assumptions simply don’t count. They make the rules and there is no external standard or prevailing authority to stand in judgment of what they say. All the decisions are made within the hallowed walls of NHRA and there is no scrutiny or oversight. Even looking at the “traditional” set of cars to be raced, there are enough exceptions, anomalies, and contradictions to show that the actual rule is “whatever that’s in the tech bulletins and class guides is what is legal”.
• Imagine you are racing Stock eliminator in the late 1970s. Out of the blue, Chevrolet decides to spec a production engine that is basically a Modified Production engine – 315 cu in, aluminum rods, ported cast iron heads, titanium valves, stud girdle, triple valve springs, roller camshaft, max compression ratio, 750 Holley carb on a single plane manifold – and stuff into a Monza car that has fiberglass fenders, hood and doors, a Dana 60 with ladder bars, a Doug Nash 5-speed transmission and back-halved with formed frame rails to fit 9x30 tires. Chevrolet says they are going to build 100 of them and sell them through their dealer network rated at 300 horsepower. Ford soon follows suit with a Pinto or Mustang II similarly equipped and then MoPar tops that with a race Hemi in a Colt or Arrow. Sound familiar?? Do you think that NHRA would have accepted those cars back then? Sure they would!! What’s the difference with that and what was allowed in the 1963-1969 era? And they even accepted a car with ported heads and had no specs for them (1969 SS/C AMX). Today is another one of those eras with the factory cars. Time and effort will force all these exceptions together, just as they have over the years.
• So, is that COPO engine legal with its max block, ported heads, etc. etc. etc.? If NHRA says so, it is. You may not like it when you struggle to pass tech with your traditional stocker, but they make the rules.
• It is surprising to see the righteous response to machining intake (or exhaust) surfaces of the heads to reduce the port volume so they can pass tech. That practice has been going on since the first days of recorded port volumes. That is the basis of the standards applied to the SS/AH engines and the requirement to not machine past the valve cover studs. Heck, when Chevrolet re-released the 291 cast iron BB head in the late 1980s, the exhaust ports in the new heads were too large for the current spec so before somebody petitioned to get the spec changed we would machine the exhaust surface back to meet the specs (and angle mill to reduce the length of the port roof!).

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Great post Dwight! You're the man!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

The School built this engine 100% to the rules as we interpreted them. This specific engine was torn down at the 2015 Chevrolet Performance US Nationals. The engine passed tech. The tech guys did a very thorough job including;
intake port
exhaust port
chamber
valve head and stem size
bore and stroke
deck
gasket thickness
cam lift
lifter plunger travel
intake manifold and throttle body

-Brian

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

^^^^^
Where's the like button?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Don't see a STEF's 7 quart pan on the approved list.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

a crate motor CC/A in stock!! now thats impressive !!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

If it's not there, it will be tomorrow, Mike.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

isn't this about stock ? the 69 amx with ported heads wasn't stock legal !!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Do you think that I can now get my '66"D" Dart back in to stock eliminator maybe at J or K?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Stefs part number 1025 has been on the accepted list for about 2 years or more now. Listed under the s/b and LS accepted pans section...not being a jerk just giving some info, also moroso has part number 21151 on there which in my opinion is a nicer piece.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Quit bragging...lol...at least u didn't have to pull the engine out with a harbor freight cherry picker and take it apart on a dirty pallet from the back of Walmart like some of us did! lmao

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

As I said... Smart guys that would pass tech. Discussion should now be over, lol

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Great post! Worth quoting to be read again!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

From 1969 until now, it was the only ported head allowed from the factory. No other engines had ported heads in 1969. The only reason it wasn't allowed in Stock eliminator is politics. What's the difference between those cars and the Thunderbolts or race hemis that are allowed now?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Come on guys...HAHAH.......I didn't read anything in that article that wasn't being done 10 years ago!!!

The Question i have is..441 inches 14:1, 390 CFM, Roller Cam, EFI with a tunnel ram that only makes 825? whats wrong with it... Give it to a real "Stocker" Engine builder!

This article is ridiculous and is glorifying someone who is riding the coat tails of Stocker racers who have been doing this 15 years before i was born...
Its not worth the paper it was printed on!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Erik....

What kind of medication are you taking?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Like they would tell you what HP the engine really made

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

See it now, thanks, my mistake.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

I think there is some confusion here about this engine. First of all this is the LS 7. This engine came in all 2012-2015 COPO Camaro's. SOME MAY BE CONFUSING IT WITH THE LSX which is a 427/450 HP version that is only eligible to run in a 2014 or 2015 car...

The LS7 discussed in the article is a good one to make 825...The LSX makes another 50 due to slightly more lift, and a different head, manifold and TB..

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

For the recird the L
S 7 discussed in the article races at 3200 # in the Shootout while the LSX runs at 3350#

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

This engine is raced in stock correct? It makes as much power as a super mod comp car in D/SM. And that comp engine has every trick in the book and more. Stock? You say stock eliminator? Did someone say stock........��

My point is stock certain has come along way!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Sorry but its not impressive.....and i think its lame to write an article like this on how "trick" they are for doing things that have been going on for ever in Stock...And as someone who makes there living in Stock and Super Stock i think those things should go unspoken, especially in writing!

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Based on those air flow numbers the dyno I use would be about 800hp with the valve angle of LS another 25 would be realistic,ET @that HP,weight seems pretty close to me,just off top of my head.
The way I see it,it is their engine and if they want to tell everything they did,then that's their business.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

And the bottom line to this whole discussion? Imagine being the guys racing '50 Oldsmobiles and Studebakers in 1962-64 when Detroit was releasing "Stock" Super Dutys,Z-11s, Max-Wedges and Hemis, and Side-Oilers and Tunnel Ports.
Well, welcome to the 21st century! Now we're those guys.
We'll survive.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

From the article
“so we milled down the intake flange surface to shorten up the length of the port just slightly. This gives us some extra room to touch up the short-turn radius, bowl, and valve job area and increase the cross-section a bit without exceeding the cc limit,”

From the NHRA Rule book
“Must be correct casting number for year and horsepower claimed, per NHRA Technical Bulletins or NHRA accepted. Porting, polishing, welding, epoxying and acid-porting prohibited.”

Based on this how is this motor legal?

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

Not quite. A bit before my time, but I believe in most cases, you could buy them off the showroom floor and drive them on the street. The one's that were not street legal went to SS. But that's already been debated. Yea, we'll just make the best of it.

Re: Within Stock rules???
 

exactly