Re: Is this legal?
 

It can be replaced with an aftermarket unit but the aftermarket unit can't be welded in!

Re: Is this legal?
 

Jeff, what brand of bar did you start with?

Re: Is this legal?
 

Chris, it was originally a MidSouth Race Cars piece. Not sure if they're still in business or not, but you could do the same with any Mustang anti-roll bar.

Re: Is this legal?
 

Take that sucker off and see if you can't push the car side-to-side without the tires moving. That is sway. As I said before, accurate or not, go ahead and call it what you want.

Re: Is this legal?
 

Cars such as a coil spring Mustang or Chevelle do not use a panhard arm because the rear control arms are set at an angle to the centerline of the car. The angle of those control arms stop any sway. Any coil spring car that has the control arms running almost straight forward needs a panhard arm to stop the body from swaying sideways and keep the rearend centered under the car.

Both type setups can take advantage of an "added" anti-rollbar which stops the body from rolling or torqueing over on the suspension. Lately a lot of coil spring GM cars like the Chevelle, GTO, GS Buick, etc have bolted a large tube between the lower control arms tying them together. This is a beefier takeoff on the factory bar that was on the some of the original performance cars. I was told this setup is accepted because it bolts to the lower control arms.

Re: Is this legal?
 

I can't take it anymore.......

Panhard bar = poor man's watts link and is ONLY used to latterly locate the rear end housing under the car.......

Sway bar = anti-roll bar = stabilizer bar and it is ONLY used to control body roll by applying pressure across the vehicle.....The body wants to roll but because the bar is attached to the body and the links try to twist the bar to roll.......In some types of racing the racers like to have the links adjustable to pre-load the suspension with out changing the spring rate.......

Same thing with the "anti-sway bars = anti-roll bars = stabilizer bars" that bolt solidly to the lower control arms. The bar will always attempt to keep the control arms parallel and prevent body roll....

Re: Is this legal?
 

Please keep us posted on what the tech folks say on this subject....

Re: Is this legal?
 

i think neveryone but Ed will agree with you, i have never heard a panhard rod called a sway bar,

Re: Is this legal?
 

Anti-roll bar = Sway bar ... Check out Jegs an Summit and look for Panhard bar end links. They have them for Sway bars , but, I don't think you will get them to work with a Panhard bar...
Anti roll-bar / Sway-bar controls body roll or Sway
Panhard bar / Diagonal / wishbone / Watts link control lateral movement

Jus sayin.....Pete

Re: Is this legal?
 

HEEE HAAA HEEE !

Was wondering when someone would finally say that !

Re: Is this legal?
 

Got the word back today from Ryck Campbell NHRA, Northeast Division Technical Director


the question was

"I was told I could use an anti-rollbar on the rearend in stock but it had to be a bolt-in unit.
Is it legal to weld in box tubing for mounting the anti-rollbar?"




like this one


http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...via-suspension



Answer "No, not in an NHRA Stock Elim. vehicle and it can not be adjustable. I can not speak for other organizations."


add later


Kelly,

From reading ClassRacer, I guess my response was not as clear as I thought. The pan-hard bar can not be adjustable.

sorry for any confusion.

Ryck Campbell
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


so you can't weld it in and the pan-hard bar can not be adjustable

that should clear things up

Re: Is this legal?
 

And tech guys in other divisions have said the exact opposite. Nothing settled. Call Glendora and get it in writing

Re: Is this legal?
 

"Can't weld it in and can not be adjustable"..........WOW, with this thinking, it sounds like there will be a ton of Stockers making changes since the majority of the cars I have looked at all have adjustable anti-roll bar links.

It needs to be in writing before I make any changes!

Re: Is this legal?
 

Sounds to me like the door is not necessarily closed.
Quite obviously, that one installed by that company, under the Camaro, is very much a departure from a factory unit.
I wouldn't allow it either.
As for adjustable, not allowed.
No kidding. This isn't Super or Pro Stock.
Just do it right the first time, and it doesn't have to be adjustable.
Besides, with our obsession with weight savings, why would a person want extra bracketry dangling around ? !

Re: Is this legal?
 

Ive never herd of this either...and ive been across the country at different NHRA and IHRA races and almost all stockers....coil spring or leaf...have an antiroll bar. An ANTOROLL bar does exactly what the factory SWAYBAR does but more efficiently and its way more solid. I could understand non adjustable links in stock because an adjustable link allows you to add preload. A parnhard bar locates the rear end side to side....an antiroll bar has no side to side properties at all...it controls body roll just like a sway bar. Looks to me like some people just like to argue even if they are wrong :D

Ive bought, built and broke a tonne of antiroll bars and never has the rear tires hit the quarter panel. So having said that it is in no way even close to being the same as a panhard bar. Some people just buy things and bolt them on their car...these are the people who dont understand the terminology and how things work. They kind of understand because of google but thats about it.

Please...i know its the off season and some poeple are stuck in their house and their choices are listen to their nagging wife or go on classracer.com. Im not looking for an aguement here this is my opinion only and im not fingering anyone out. No internet war please.

As for it being legal I think its ok as long as it bolts into the car. Its better than having a cork screwing tire rubbing disaster. It is a traction device just like a stock swaybar is a traction device as well. Id be more concerned about people having adjustable control arms because I was under the impression that that was not legal. But I have seen alot of coil sprung GM's with upper adjustable control arms. And as for the original post they welded in a brace to bolt the antiroll bar in. The car is sheet metal in this area and you cannot bolt an antiroll bar to sheet metal because the floor will buckle. As for the weld rule I would want it to be a bolt on deal anyways that way you can remove it and service the unit in between races.

Re: Is this legal?
 

it's a no go Pacific Division

same question



Kelly,



On that is not acceptable, for Stock.



Pat Cvengros



Pacific Division Technical Director

Re: Is this legal?
 

Guys, I'm not just trying to argue. I've been in the auto repair business for 50 years, and what I'm calling sway bars have been called that (as well as anti-sway bars) in service manuals since the 1940s and by about every technition I ever worked with for as long as I can remember. Panhard bar is a term I have only heard in the last 10 or 15 years.
You are free to call it what you want. I'm not going to belittle anybody for disagreeing.

Re: Is this legal?
 

Looks like the list of tech guys in "other divisions" who said it was okay to weld in the anti-rollbar is dwindling.

In fact can anyone name any techman who said it was okay? Probably not.

Re: Is this legal?
 

need Travis' input.

Re: Is this legal?
 

i ran a ajustable panhard bar 3 or 4 years ago was told by n.h.r.a tech to remove it and put the stock back in also run the stock sway bar never had any luck with that trick stuff gene monahan 1021 stock p.s that was at indy

Re: Is this legal?
 

If you look hard, you can see that is is bolt on.but are you allowed to weld that brace in? that's the question

Re: Is this legal?
 

I know the car in question has done well at several IHRA events.

IHRA and NHRA rules are not always the same.Maybe IHRA will have no problem with this?

Re: Is this legal?
 

The real question is... When will the rule book be written clearly? This class has been around for how long now??? How many years of combined experience with this class are tied up in this post alone trying to figure out this one simple rule. The tech department needs to correct the rule book when a clarification is addressed by a racer. Not just relpy via e-mail with a vague answer to the one racer psoing the question. That is how the, "I was told" problems snowballs in the mess we have here today. This statement applies to the roller rocker issue as well.

Re: Is this legal?
 

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a rule clarification issued soon. Using the stock sway bar works fine and don't have to worry about any issues whether it's legal or not. Factory provided all the mounting points when they built the car.

Re: Is this legal?
 

Update:

Here is the entire days e-mail traffic between myself and Div 7 Tech (Pat Cvengros) Here is what he has to say concerning anti-roll bars.

ME: Pat,

I have a question concerning the use and installation of anti-roll bars in Stock.

Under SUSPENSION, Rear: It states, "Sway bar(s) optional." Is an anti-roll bar considered a sway bar, or a traction device? Both are used to prevent body roll, so what section does it fall under?

Under TRACTION BARS: Can you define "Traction Device"? Is an anti-roll bar a traction device, or suspension item? I ask because the TRACTION BAR section reads: Bolt on traction devices permitted, provided front mounting point is no farther forward that stock mounting point for control arms on coil-spring-cars, or stock front mounting point in rear. Device must be installed under leaf spring and bolt to leaf-spring attaching point in rear. Is this geared towards slapper bars or Caltracs?

The main question I have is can an anti-roll bar be welded in, or does it have to be bolted in? How can/should it be attached to the rear end housing? Can the links be adjustable?

The rule book is very vague on all of this in my opinion, and the majority of Stockers you look under have welded in anti-roll bars along with adjustable links. Only a hand full of them that I have seen are bolted in. Preventing body roll and the ability to adjust it to a particular track, vehicle or condition seems that it would only aid in drivers safety by being able to correct an ill launching vehicle. Welding these in vs. bolting them in would also be a safer way of doing things as well considering 90% of the anti-roll bars available today are weld in and would require extensive modification to "bolt" them in.

Can I get some clarification on this and possibly push for the rule book to be adjusted with clear guidance on this matter to avoid any further confusion.

I think someone may have already posed this question asking...

"I was told I could use an anti-rollbar on the rearend in stock but it had to be a bolt-in unit.
Is it legal to weld in box tubing for mounting the anti-rollbar?"

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...via-suspension

I am not sure if the way this question was asked answered the entire topic at hand.

Thank you for your time,

Shawn Allsup

PAT: "NHRA views an anti roll bar and sway bar as the same; and that they be bolted in." As for the article on Competition Plus, that is not acceptable for NHRA Stock Eliminator.

ME: That being said, nothing in the rule book states that a sway bar (anti-roll bar) has to be bolted in. Sway bars are listed under the SUSPENSION section as optional. The rule book should clearly state this!

As I stated earlier, MANY Stock Eliminator cars out there have these parts welded in. People build a car around a set of rules, and those rules need to be clear. If a car shows up to a race and is booted because of a rule that is not specifically stated in the rule book, then what happens? What is keeping that person from going around to every race and looking at every car and pointing out the same issue.

I write regulations and tech manuals for the US military. Items that are vague are left up to interpretation and often lead to a decision being made, and the text changed to reflect. Until it is changed, it is considered legal.

I am just looking for a solid answer/solution to an unclear issue that is currently bouncing around among the racers.

Shawn

PAT: "To be more specific, sway bars are used on the rear end of a vehicle is a traction device, which we do clearly state must be bolted in/on, not welded. I am not aware of any NHRA Stock Eliminator car having a welded sway bar/ anti rotation bar; but I have not seen every single cars that participates either. Items that seem vague in specific class rules are clearly addressed on page XV of the 2011 NHRA Rulebook under HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK it reads in part “it is a general rule that unless optional performance equipment or performance related modifications is specifically permitted by this rulebook, it is prohibited.” Therefore it would not be considered legal, as it is with the Military documents you write. With that being said, it does not state any where in the rulebook that you can weld the bar or any associated brackets; so it would be illegal."

So... the "HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK" is the catch all. I don't agree with it, or the way the rules are vaguely written, but I'm just a bottom feeder Stock Eliminator racer. I hope this puts some of this to bed concerning the anti-roll bar issue. Now the panhard bar....that is another mess I want no part of.

It looks like myself, and a few other racers have some work to do.

Re: Is this legal?
 

In the IHRA rulebook for Stock under TRACTION BARS it says coil spring-equipped cars may have strengthened mounting points.

So I guess it is okay if you bolt it to the strengthened mounting point in IHRA?

Re: Is this legal?
 

My input is that Pat Cvengros nailed it with his answer. I must also say that I have only seen bolted in anti-rollbars on NHRA Stock Eliminator cars, none that were welded in...because if I had seen one I would have definitely made an issue out of it!

Looks like it might be time to reinstate my disclaimer.

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: Is this legal?
 

If they allow this then I want my wheelie bars back.

Re: Is this legal?
 

I have a '97 Firebird LT-1 Stocker that was once my car. A friend let me race it a couple times this year. It hooks very well and I have been in the 1.29's with it....Leaves wheels up and no body roll.....

NO WELDED in anything.....

Pete Z bolt on bars......adjustable bolt in torque arm......bolt in torque arm crossmember......STOCK non adjustable panhard bar or lateral locator if you would like to call it and there is also a reinforcement bar that is on there but I think a lot of people remove it....I have it on and have wheelie bars.....

It all needs to be checked for loose bolts or any cracking of brackets....

Both problems have been found in the past.....

I always understood Stocker rear suspension items had to be bolt on only to be legal. NO WELDING.... I wondered how these anti-rollbars or swaybars if you like to call it that could be advertised for stockers and are weld in items.......

I could go a lot further by asking how can some of the new cars be legal........Completely welded in 4 link type rear suspenions from what I recall seeing a couple years ago....and these cars are out racing and accepted.....No or NO ? Which is it.....

So NHRA Tech all of a sudden says no welding or adjustable panhard bars?

Right......

Splain this to me Lucy......

Re: Is this legal?
 

After reading"HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK" ,what I got out of it was in short is "just because it doesn't say you can't,doesn't mean you can."

Re: Is this legal?
 

You have got it right.

Now for a history lesson. The following is copied word for word from the oldest NHRA rulebook that I own, the 1961 NHRA rulebook;

"The Competition and Safety Regulations contained in this book are presented in a POSITIVE MANNER; that is, whenever possible each permissible option or class requirement has been listed. UNLESS THE CLASS REQUIREMENT OR SAFETY REGULATIONS SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT A MODIFICATION OR OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT IS PERMISSIBLE, IT WILL NOT BE ALLOWED."

With this I can only verify that this statement is at least fifty years old. Beyond that, I cannot say.

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: Is this legal?
 

so, now what...

Re: Is this legal?
 

Kelly, I dont think that would fly as a bolt on sway bar. The large piece of rec tubing is what will get you bounced. There is a huge difference in "plating" a piece of wheel house or frame and what you are showing here. But, you never know. I wouldnt want to be the guinea pig on that one!

Wade O

Re: Is this legal?
 

This is one of those days where I'm happy to own a Dodge

Re: Is this legal?
 

Travis, that is the way I remembered it worded, tried to show it to a young man a while back, but it's not in there now. Don't know why they would change it. Makes it pretty clear.

Re: Is this legal?
 

It is still there Ed. It now refers to "optional performance equipment or performance-related modification."

In the 2011 NHRA Rulebook, see the third paragraph in HOW TO USE THIS RULEBOOK on page xv in the front of the book.

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

P.S. This is a good time to also to point out another paragraph in that section of the NHRA rulebook. It states on page xvi as follows;

"Unauthorized cars, parts, and/or equipment will not be considered approved by reason of having passed through technical inspection at any time, or any number of times. Moreover, having passed through technical inspection at any time, or any number of times, is not a defense to a violation found on further inspection."

Re: Is this legal?
 

Btw, my throttle body air bypass hole is still plugged. :-)
Nice finally meeting you st Bowling Green.

Re: Is this legal?
 

For one thing,I'm thinking there might be less tech articles about Stock Eliminator on the internet.

If it wasn't on Competition Plus,I doubt anybody would have known about it.

Re: Is this legal?
 

It reminds me of the Evan Smith article in National Dragster when he installed an aluminium chunk in his 9".

Re: Is this legal?
 

FWIW (Not Much) :eek:

Back a few years when starting the build on my Camaro looked into this. Spoke to S&W was told the anti-roll bar was approved, had to remove the stock fuel tank. At that time did not want a fuel cell and was more interested in what AppleTree Engineering offered.

http://www.swracecars.com/store/Anti...25=40-613.aspx

The ad seems to assure/infer that it is approved for Stock. :confused:
Would think that with this thread and comments from tech officials Scott would be looking into this. Am sure he would not want to put any of his customers in jeopardy.