Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...tSuperbird.jpg

Why would Chrysler go through all the trouble to make an illegal
SS/EA car,,,,,,,,,,and purposely lose if they made it to the
Class Finals,,,,,,,,

And if everyone knew it was a 'cheater car', you would think the NHRA techs
would have gotten wind of it,,,,,,,and DQ'd the car, before it ever hit the
staging lanes at INDY in 1970..

Back then,,,a simple P & G gauge test would answer the question as to whether
a 512 cubic inch Hemi was installed.

And, a simple lift of the rear deck lid,,,,and most good techs would be able to tell if there was added weight.

Stories of a lead-filled wing weighing 150 lbs........Really,,,,,,,,

pc

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

How many 70-71 Hemi Cuda convertibles did Chrysler build?
Bob Rice

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Less than what I have seen on Barrett-Jackson.LWS(laced with sarcasm)

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I dont think many knew the car was bogus at that time. I only heard about it when I was at the York nostalgia show a few years ago when Jack was there. Maybe it was BS and maybe it was not??

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Ray's Chevelle was a great class car. Of course, that weight brake later got put into SS/FA and the 427 Camaro's became Chevy's entry in SS/EA,
Ray was a good friend, as well as the whole Truppi-Kling group, Ralph Truppi, who I considered a best friend, past a couple of years ago, and I didn't find out about it until the Gators in 2010.
I first met them, Ralph, Tommy Kling and Ray when they ran in F/S class against the original Bad Banana, owned by Ted Hartman (which I drove). They had a 58 Chevy 348 that ran in the class and we ran against them and Gere Stahl, in his 56 Chevy from Cordia Chev. in East Haddem, CT in 1964 when we set the class record. Ralph, Tommy and ray then built a car just like the Bad Banana and called it the terrible Tangerine.
Those were the greatest days for Stock ans Super Stock in my opinion.
Dave Colbert

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Indy 1970 Richard Charbonneau
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...rlanewagon.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Indy1970-1.jpg

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Dave Wren told some of us at lunch about Chrysler asking him to build a 71 Cuda convertible to go after Ray.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...arlGouldvi.jpg

Maybe just as good a running SS/EA 1970 Hemi Superbird,,,,,,,
Tim Richards in the Karl Gould car.

Tim won the SS/EA Class at the 1970 Summernationals at York US30 Drag-O-Way.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

http://image.moparmusclemagazine.com...+superbird.jpg

Sox & Martin,,,,,,,,,May 1970,,,,,Super Stock Magazine Nationals, @ York US30 Drag-O-Way
SS/E,,,,,,1970 Hemi Superbird

Were they looking for Ray Allen too,,,,,,,,
The SS/E National Record got down to 11.10 in 1970
The SS/EA National Record got down to 11.27 in 1970

Notice,,,,,,,'no vinyl top',,,,,,,,,which all Plymouth Superbirds came with,,,,,,

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I knew someone was going to ask this question, do you really want to know the production numbers, about 18 units of 70 Hemicuda convert's total, and about 11 units of 71 Hemicuda convert's total...But it looks like NHRA just lumped all the cars together anyway, all of the Chevelle hardtops, coupes, & convertibles, or all of the Cuda hardtops, coupes, & convertibles, or all of the Mustang fastbacks, coupes, & convertibles all built for different SS/ classes, etc.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I'd seen the production numbers so that's why I posted.
Bob Rice

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Do you happen to have anymore old photo's of some more wing cars and convertibles doing battle, there were also a few clones out there back in the day.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Here's what Jack Werst's 70 Hemi Superbird looked like after he sold it to Ken Jenning's, it has also changed hands a few more times since then, a real time capsule!
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...181257CO05.jpg

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Was this the same year that Richard Petty got caught with a big motor???

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I had heard the story at York, Pa. about 4 or 5 years ago. Then read a magazine article maybe 3 years ago on the same car.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Did the Jack Werst car get its 'final preperation' at Knopf Plymouth
in Philadelphia,,,,,,,,before Indy 1970.

Didn't Knopf Plymouth have a secret 'skunkworks program' going on
back then,,,,,,,,

pc

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

The article on the Super Bird was published in Mopar Action a couple of years back. It states that Chrysler figured the Chevelle was a cheater car, so they just built the cheater 'Bird to take it out ....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

That was way back when Chrysler really had a racing program.

They need to get some of 70s racers to tell them how to get cars into more than just two classes in Stock. They sure dont seem to want to listen to me.

Not your Dad's racing program any more... Too bad, because the could do it without spending very much money, and they could get a lot more press....

Thanks for all of the information guys, trips down memory lane are a fun walk..

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Here's the "Thorn In Mopars Guys Side", does anyone here know how many races Ray Allen won during the time he raced this Chevelle SS convertible.
http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/26...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I wonder how many races these two had together, Dick Landy vs Ray Allen, and did they go hunting for each other. This was Dick Landy's 70 Hemi Charger R/T.
http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/46...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

As I remember, the amount of races that car won is surprising because it's really not that many. Allen won a bunch of the high profile races and the car became famous, though I'll never forget how it looked when it launched.

Now that I'm seeing various pictures of the car, some probably dumb questions are coming to mind.

Allen is listed as "driver". Who actually owned the car when it was being raced? Allen? Briggs? Truppi?

Is that really a fiber optic light monitor I see on the front fender in the last shot you posted?

How did T-K make that kind of horsepower with that ridiculous flat intake manifold? The story of why those intakes were on the LS6s is pretty interesting in itself.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Is that really a fiber optic light monitor I see on the front fender in the last shot you posted?

Kidding, right?

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Briggs owned the car and the ramp truck from what I recall at least for that year. We could not keep up with them with our old GMC on the way back from Sanair's WCS race.....

I am no expert but the intake on a Chevelle was lower than others......

The carb mounting pad kind of sunk down to make carb to hood room.....

Not to sure what they did with that one....


The car did leave very cool for the era......I used to laugh and say the rear bumper is going to hit the gorund....

Not sure what the rear tires were on it but XS-11's were "big tires" back then.....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

S/S was allowed any OEM or aftermarket intake back then. Sheet metal intakes didnt become allowed until many years later. Im almost sure they used an Edelbrock Taranchula (sp?) intake but its been a long time ago since I looked at the car in the staging lanes. Kenny Koonce Sr. ran the same type car as an A/SA before he ran his Camaro and used the legal replacement high rise intake and it fit under the hood OK. Im probably wrong but I think the tires were 11.5 wide. The rear fenders looked slightly bowed out to me. This was before tubbing the wheel wells and narowed rears were allowed.

P.S. I just found an article in the December 1970 issue of Super Stock magazine on Ray Allens car. The picture of the engine dosent show the inake very well with the big air cleaner base in the way but it looks like a GM Hi rise intake from a 66-69 427 Camaro or big car. I thought for sure they had an Edelbrock intake on it when I saw it but that was 41 years ago....LOL. The carb is facing straight in the OEM position instead of on an angle. No mention of the rear tire size but are M&H's for sure. Best E.T. was 11.21 @ 123 MPH.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Terry there were very few single 4 barrell intakes out in 1970 and the Edelbrocks for a rect port BB would have likely been the one that turned the carb off center line to try and minimize the runner length differences...Not sure if that was out yet.....

The Tarantula intakes did not come out untill probably 1971 or 1972 I think

My old Chevy II became a SS/J stick car that year (1972)and had one of those intakes on it with a flat tappet cam....

In 1970? Not sure what might have been available.....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

You are probably correct but I thought the intake mounted the carb on an angle. Its possable they were testing one after they won the world finals. I cant remember. I added to my post after I found an article on the car. 41 years is a long time ago.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I was in the T/K shop a few times while the Chevelle was in there.

We installed our engine there for our H/S Chevy II....

Ralph....Tommy....Jerry Stinner.....almost always there...

Ray liked to play Darts...He didn't like to get dirty and wore white shoes or pants....LOL

He could drive a 4 speed as good or better than anyone and was the "T/K Test Pilot"

I have a vague memory of Ralph pointing to the low slung intake and it was on the car......Probably early in 1970....

My partner and Ralph would talk ...I hung out in the shop.....Tommy was quiet but a great guy and was always working on something.....

Pretty sure they were in to Bowling.....and all worked stopped on bowling nights......I forget the name of the lanes.....RT 22.....Might still be there....



The shop they occupied then is Charlie Westons and he has been there for many years....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

It sure seems like embelished stories are more acceptable then the truth! I have known of the Superbird for almost 40 years! Once again, the same driver CANNOT drive 2 vehicles in the same eliminator! Always has been a rule and probably always will be a rule. The pictures in this post clearly identify that fact!
When the story came out a few years ago, I offered the author a chance to hear the true story, but he declined.
Only a few know the TRUE story behind this fabeled car. Ask Dave Wren or Bob Lambeck-both were present at Indy and were part of the MOPAR contingent.

I do applaud Mr Werst for keeping the story alive

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Jess,
Would you care to share anymore information or old stories that YOU might know about these old race cars...True Story...please do tell everyone here.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

To answer Dan Bennetts question, I believe the Car was always owned by Briggs Chevrolet. The earlier description of Ray Allen staying clean and wearing his white shoes is an accurate one for the most part; Tommy Kling was the diligent worker; Jerry Stinner his willing helper; and Ralph Truppi was the "thinker" - very very intelligent. I will always miss those "deep" theoretical discussions with Ralph.
Dave Colbert





https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlinkhttps://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Thanks for all the replies.

I didn't remember that it was allowable to change the intake. Chevy had a really good one for the time that was used on the 375 horse stuff and it would have worked well. It just wasn't the one the factory used on the 450 hp piece.

The thing with the stock LS6 piece was that it had almost no rise whatsoever, probably a lot less than even the low hp cast iron parts.

According to the info I've seen, the LS6 was designed for the 1970 Corvette and was going to be the logical progression for the 427/425 and 427/435. Very close to model launch, the engine was killed for the Corvette but released for the Chevelles. That flatness was so it would clear the hood of a Corvette but the beancounters wanted to use the intake since it had been tooled and the investment had been made.

I've never seen the originals, but there are GM materials floating around showing an entire family of 454s in 1970, including the LS7 which was slated to replace the L88 and also a tripower 454 with big heads and solid lifters. The insurance thing was getting too hot and GM withdrew the engines before they were ever put into production.

So the top of the line Chevelle got an intake that looked like it belonged on a Olds 350 2bbl and the Corvette maxed out with a hydraulic 390 hp small port engine in 1970.

And yes, the fiber optic thing was a joke but I have seen some strange options on "factory supplied" cars.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Hi Dave Colbert......I built a '69 Camaro around 1979. I intended to just bracket race it but was talked into making it a SS/JA by the men at Crow's Head Shop....I soon was working there and did for 10 years. We machined lots of stuff for T/K's and I spoke to Ralph all the time. You might have been there.

The Camaro I built got a cam recommended by Ralph and it was one he said you used with great success. I had a cam reground to those specs. It was a G-K 308......I broke a pile of parts with that cam! Maybe it was because it was a regrind. I tried all kinds of things to stop the breakage but had to get that cam outta there.....I had much better luck with a Cam Dynamics or a Lunati......I never could run with the lead guys but gave it a try.......Best et was 11.18 at 118 around 1981 or 1982. The good cars were dipping into the 10.90's by then...

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

By the early 80's a lot of the fast runners were porting and acid etching the heads. I didnt know about it until around 84-85. We never did that stuff on Jim Morgans 428 CJ but he still managed to get around guys like Warren, Weakland, and some other fast 325 HP Camaros and Mustangs in SS/GA. Had to run it like a small block Chev. with 5.86 gears and 8600 RPM in the traps. Jim would say he shut his eyes the last 300 ft so he didnt have to see the tach.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Intake manifold for Ray Allens/Briggs Chevrolet,,,,,,,
looks to be an aluminum dual-plane high riser,,,,,,GM-brand

Slicks,,,,,,,,went from M & H Racemaster,,,then to Good Year,
Firestones on the front,,,,,,,,,

SS/EA National Record for 1970,
Beginning of the year;
11.61
11.55
11.37
11.33
11.31
11.27
End of year

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...L_GOULD_01.jpg

Tim Richards of Pennyslvania,,,,,,
Karl Gould Chrysler-Plymouth, out of Vestal, New York.

A damn good running SS/EA 1970 Hemi Superbird.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Not sure if it's been mentioned but wasn't Ray the 1970 NHRA Super Stock World Champ...and did he clinch it in that final (against Crutchfield) at Ontario? BTW, that looks like Wenzel's car in the other lane against Charbonneau....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Jim Hale had a gooney bird for awhile. Took a lot of crap over that ugly sucker. lol

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Back in 1970 the only way to be world champ was to win the world finals. It wasnt a points deal like today. The points was for Div. champs and positions 1 thru 10 and being qualified to go to the world finals. If I remeber right at one time they only took the top 5 in each division. Yes...Ray Allen won the race and was the world champ because of his win.......NOT because of his points total.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Terry is correct, if you qualified for the finials you got a certificate with your name scrolled on top and signed by Steve Gibbs and a fee entry to the finials in the mail.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Jess , ask Bob Glidden how he entered two cars in S/S at the same race in 1972 .